The AM Forum

With all due respect, should a General Class licensee, with a "W" prefix 1 X 3 callsign, be asking this (http://www.eham.net/forums/Elmers/166770) question?


And licensed amateurs are expected to know what p.e.p. is and how to measure theirs?

Guess all those memory tricks to get your ticket really work!

It all because he doesn't know the Morris Code!

<Sigh!>  Cmon!  I took my General in the mid 80s, and you had to know about filters then.  I would certainly think they should know that now.  I mean - it's a no-brainer type of thing.  Gee, I hope he has no problems reading out his freq. considering that the TS-120 has an analog dial!  As for the 1x3 callsign - that doesn't mean much nowadays.  There are so many newbs and relative newbs getting vanity calls nowadays - a 1x3 doesn't mean much anymore for OTness.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

3 days without cigabutts FOF...my sense of humor has been a tad thin. SO GET THE HELL OFF MY FREQUENCY! ARE YOU ON NARCOTICS?

Brent(TINA) W1IA

A.  It is the component that ensures the design meets a 2400 Hertz Necessary Bandwidth.

(From the ARRL 2012 Q & A Manual.)

...i herd a guy today, (one of our new credit card hams), state ..."T-9...WHAT DOES THAT MEAN...NEVER HERD OF IT..."
   this clown got his ticket about a year ago, and further to that, never herd of  RST.....sk...

Scary is all I can say. 

It's hardly new. I've heard idiots on the air over 10 years ago uttering, "Them boys is runnin' AM and sideband at the same time!" in reference to an AM signal. Another good one from that era was, "They put that squeal on their signal just to annoy us!" not understanding the concept of their product detector creating a heterodyne beat note with the AM carrier.

Even further in the past I've heard classics (still hear them today), like:

"Let me tune my SWRs."
"This antenna works great for DX and local contacts."
"This radio has more talk power since I removed the ALC."
"There's a 6 kHz bandwidth limit for AM."
"You are splattering the entire band!"
"I don't know why everyone is having trouble hearing me. I hear everyone just fine with my 15 foot high dipole."

the 2.4 KC filter is teh filter that makes AM sound Hyellowy.

I dont have the amp going, but I'n warmin up the yeasu. no one is less han 40 over.

Yikes. How did this dude get his license? I for one am definate "old school" and when I get my ticket back sure as hell I'll apply for a vanity call considering my old one was given to someone down in southern Wisconsin. Unfortunately you can't tell if an OT really is. To get you up to speed I'm working with Ed K9FWR who is building a killer AM rig using a 4-250A and some 811As for mods. Me too. I scored a cherry DX-60B to go with my HW-10 RCVR and Kenwood 440 so I'm well on my way to some extra fun come retirement next year.  Mike (ex) K9ZSL. ;D

Good Evening All,

 The Thing is, this is actually to be Expected. I don't have a problem when a prospect asks a question, it's when they don't and get into some type of mess, for a better word i guess.

 One of the greatest aspects of this forum is that very situation..why i always consider my roots from here..but Hey standardize the tests standardize the outcome...it wasn't my ideal.

More humorous than the question may be the answers!  ;D

At least the guy is asking, that's a good sign that he wants to learn.
In the long run, those who pass the exam by memory, and not by learning theory, are just cheating themselves...and at the same time providing us with some humorous nuggets of mirth!

Yup. Got some AMers like that. One tried to tell me he could hear audio out to 9 kHz because his receiver had a 9 kHz IF bandwidth. ::)

Proof, once again, that an infinite number of monkeys sitting in front of an infinite number of typewriters are certain to churn out Shakespeare play every now and then.

Or as they say in the hinterlands:
"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then."

Or my favorite, "Somebody has to push the wheelbarrow."

by the time dinner was over, the band had crapped out. tuned around for half a hour, about 4 slopbuckets on the whole band. Gonna check again....no one on. decided to make some use of the time and set up my second bench/operation position. So now I have 2 benches like what you guys saw again. Will hold a lot of mauls and munkys. lotsa space now.

now I gotta get Glo set up for her beadmaking stuff, since she was using that bench  :P Tomorrow will be all about her stuff. Yaesu is hooked up ok, tuned ready to go - will check band around 4 to 5 tomorrow. JTD was 60 over.

I just found this on his QRZ.com profile:


Looks like he may be on the right track, even if he did use "memory tricks" to pass his test.  Maybe someone who lives near his QTH should invite him over and introduce him to AM.  He might be a  good prospect.

I won't comment about his technical skills but I will say this.  At least he is willing to ask a question if he doesn't know the answer.  There are an awful lot of times when I hear folks getting in conversations with someone else about something they know nothing about.  Instead of admitting ignorance and using it as an opportunity to learn too often people are afraid to speak up and say I don't understand this.  Hopefully someone will stop the conversation before Vectors, Wavelets, 3rd order intercepts, and Klystrons become the same thing.  It is possible that folks are worried about being made fun of or it is possible they truly believe they know more than everyone else out there (the fact is though that there is always someone out there that is smarter...)

Just my .02

"How can we learn when we are always using all of our knowledge".
Author unknown

Yes, and he did actually open the cover on his rig. There is hope.

I guess those are some good points guys.

Ellen - AF9J

Given the number of hams licensed way longer than me that don't understand concepts they had to show proficiency in to get their licenses, I'm not suprised.

Given that most licensed hams are more likely to ridicule the guy than give him the right answer, he probably won't learn any more than the rest, and we will claim that's his fault.

Raise your hands, everyone here who was born knowing what that filter does...

...I see.

You want to know why hams are getting dumber? Don't blame them for not knowing, blame us for pointing fingers and laughing at their questions instead of answering them.

Shame on us for letting it ever slip this far.

--Thom
Keep Away One Zorched Ground Conductor

No reason to deride the guy.  He did take the cover off his radio and ask a question about something he didn't understand.  If anything, he is a victim of the present-day  system of entry into amateur radio.  How many of us "experts" would have been equally baffled had we grown up in his era?

If you look at his profile in QRZ.com, he is no old buzzard at or nearing retirement age, but probably in the bottom 10th percentile (and probably at the low end of that segment) of age for licensed hams.  He expressed a fascination for radio dating from age 10, so the present AM scene might be just down his alley.

The point is, how could one achieve being licensed as a General and not know the purpose of the i.f. filter in a receiver or transceiver?  Yet, some still insist that with the volunteer exam system and published question-answer pools, the exams are just as rigorous as ever and have not been dumbed down.  IIRC, my General class exam required me to draw a block diagram of a basic bare-bones superheterodyne receiver.

And this has nothing to do with the "Morris" code.  Sure, this bloke is a no-code General, but so is everyone else who took the test since this past February.  Still, he mentions listening to CW at age 10, and includes a "Chinese military straight key" as part of his station equipment, so presumably he has at least made a stab at running cw.

Radios contain all kinds of filtering. Power supply filters, IF-stage filters, RF-stage filters, AF-stage filters. He hasn't been into enough radios to make the educated guess as to which filter he's staring at yet.

The VE program has become a catch-all excuse to not teach these guys anything. I came in by way of the VE program, and I'm no idiot. I know my way around a rig because I found the answers to the questions I had. I read. I researched. I evolved. I didn't have to draw a schematic of a class C amplifier, or a block diagram of a receiver to get my license, but I certainly can if I have to. I know plenty of guys who had to take the "real" exams at the nearest FCC field office who still don't have a clue how to operate, let alone diagnose a failure.

What's really to blame for the lack of knowledge in the hobby is the lack of elmering. When's the last time anyone here took a newbie under his wing and showed him the ropes, or is that just something that only us guys that came in under the VE program still beleive in?

If we all sit around and refuse to mentor anyone on the grounds that they need to be mentored, then we have only ourselves to blame for the paucity of understanding of basic radio theory, and we have no business blaming the VE program for our lack of involvement. That's just a crutch, and a piss-poor one at that.

We're supposed to be teachers as well as students. We've lost touch with that, and the result is a whole lot of un-/mis-informed people who only have each other to learn the wrong answers from.

The newbies aren't killing the hobby, the oldbies are. The newbies are eager to learn, but trying to get the oldbies to teach is like pulling teeth. How much would any of us know if someone hadn't taken a minute to explain all these things to us? Who's going to pass on what we've learned when we're all dead?

Imagine how far you would have made it in the hobby if you asked your elmer a question, and the response was "Shouldn't you know that already? Why, back in my day...".

The answer: you'd be asking random passers-by what that 2.4kc filter in your rig was for.

Nobody was born with this knowledge. We all had to learn it from somewhere. There was a time in all our lives when none of us have known the answer to that question, thankfully there were others around who were willing to explain it to us.

Those days are over, and that's what's to blame for the "dumbing down" of the hobby. Not the VE program, not the code-free licenses, not QRZ, not eHam, but every single licensed ham who holds back on passing on what others once passed on to them.

I'll say it again: shame on us for ever letting it get this bad.

--Thom
Kilowatt Amplifier One Zero Grid Current

Hmmm.... Thom, who exactly are you referring to?  I don't know of a single AM operator who hasn't, is or would help anyone who asked.  To be cognizant that some of today's newbies are not as well versed in radio technology as are the older generation ham is not slinging mud at anyone or anything.  It's simply concern.  I think the AM community does an excellent job of Elmering and always being available to those who have questions.

Rick/K5IAR

Did I say anything about AM?

I'm not singling anyone out, that's why I said "us". It's not about mode, it's about mentality. It's a lot easier to blame someone's lack of knowledge on a thousand other factors than it is to fill in the gaps.

BTW, I've heard plenty of people with a carrier and two sidebands essentially wash their hands of newcoming hams. Again, it's not mode-specific. I can name names if you prefer, but then I too fall into the blame game.

It's not an AM thing, it's something I hear in every walk of ham radio, and it's the reason so many licensees have learned/are learning little-to-nothing about radio.

It's too simple to blame it on the VE program, or the no-code license, or what-have-you; and then write these people off as not worth the effort and excuse ourselves from trying to get some of them up to speed. We owe it to those who taught us to pass those teachings on.

Plenty of us do, but more of us need to.

That's all I'm saying.

--Thom
Killer Aircraft One Zeppelin Goes Crash

Holy crap.  Jack is back.  Hi Jack!  Note: Not to be confused with hijacking an airplane.

OK Tom,
I should know better than to jump into the "hornets nest" by now,--this / these issues have been
discussed "ad infinatum" as to the reasons HR is in this "mess".
You have a "right" to your opinion, and I have a right to mine.(again IMO)

I think its "simplistic" to blame hams in general cause they don`t "mentor" .
The point I have tried to make,(about the ARRL and VEC) and the powers that be , is that the existing
exam IS watered down,--(forget the cw)-- just about anyone now can go from "zip" to "extra"
with a couple of days of "craming amd jamming" and get a ticket.

You mentioned "mentors",--ok that goes back a long ways, BUT a prospective ham, (years ago)
was in most cases mentored BEFORE he applied for a ticket, and that ticket usually was the novice class.

One did not start as a General or Extra years ago,with the "zip" for experience or knowledge and
THEN expect to be "spoon fed" by other hams with more experience.

Again,--its the "cart before the horse" synderome that the powers that be have promoted over
the past years, that many OT`s have a problem with.
 
                                                    73, K1MVP

P.S., there is one thing worse than an OT who thinks he "knows it all" and that is a "newbie" who
       thinks he knows it all.--again IMO.

Unless he reads this thread, in which case he will leave the hobby I am sure.

One of the things I have noticed about this board versus others is the way members respond to questions by individuals.  Here the answers are given without ridicule straight forward.  

On other forums, I have seen several consecutive posts following the question that state the guy is an idiot or he should know better and quick quips of "look it up" with no reference as to where to look.

That type of response has the effect of making someone new drop the hobby or neglect it.  We have some mentoring to do that is for sure, and if you do it in a kind and helpful way, you will see a new ham emerge willing to help others down the road.  I should hope that anyone, no matter their knowledge level, feels as if they can post here or on AMRadio without fear of being ridiculed for their questions.

Those who blame the exams being dumbed down are on the right track.   The problem is that the SYSTEM has been dumbed down.

It used to be that one needed to be elmered to know enough to pass the test and succeed at getting on the air.   To know the needed stuff one had to be motivated enough to learn it.   Now the test can be memorised from a book, thus newbies don't need to seek out elmers.   Just one day a new, knows just enough to get in trouble, ham, shows up on your block or on the air.  And this is what we end up with.

That's not to blame the newbies.  They did what was required of them and having passed a "federal radio exam," they have been led to believe they know what's needed.   The cruel joke is on them, unless they don't care about anything more than "them thar extree channels them hamz have."   And sadly there are enough of them to sour the bunch too.

If a newbie comes to me I'll help the best I can.   But nobody has done so in many years.  They don't need to, they've already memorised the license manual.

But what started this thread was a guy who DID ask a question. So your point is rather diminished.

LOL...Hi Bobby...How ya doen bud...

Interesting how you have a right to your opinion, but I only have a "right" to mine. Do you have any idea how that makes you sound?


I think it's simplistic to blame the VE program.


I got my Novice, through the VE program. Wierd, huh?

I hope you're not suggesting that all elmering halted once someone got licensed. It's not like everyone who got licensed had nothing more to learn once they got their tickets. Elmers were usually there to help with operating practices, another trend that died a quick death.


Interesting how you were taught, and everyone else is "spoon fed".

I guess nobody ever gave you any guidance once you were on the air. Imagine how much you'd have learned if your elmer(s) thought of teaching you as "spoon feeding".


Fine, but don't use that as an excuse to withold knowledge so you can turn and blame the lack of knowledge on the VE program. Cursing the darkness doesn't turn on any lights.


That could only be meant as a personal attack against me. I won't stoop that low, but I will point out that when those superioristic tactics are employed it's frequently because one is afraid he may be mistaken. Better to ridicule that discuss.

BTW, there's something far worse than either: an OT who knows the answer but refuses to share it because of the way somebody got licensed.

I'm sure you were trying to counter my point of view, but you're actually making my point for me. Next time you engage me in conversation, see if you can do it without looking at me past the end of your nose.

Thanks for reinforcing my point, though I really didn't need your help.

Have a great day!

--Thom
Killer Appetizer One Zesty German Chocolate

I have been licensed for less than two years, took the General 2 weeks after getting my tech.  Used some study guide book.

In the mean time I have accumulated ~ 1500 lbs of BA including a twin 813 600 HB transmitter, R-390A, r-388, SX-42, JVII etc etc.  I am heavy on the gear and light on the experience.

This thread makes me VERY nervous about posting questions here....

My 2c.

Rich

Don't be. Most people here are very forthcoming with real answers to questions.

All you're seeing here is a cultural divide. We'll all be friends when it's all said and done.

--Thom
Kilowatt Amplifier One Zero Grid Current

I HAVE received a great deal of help here. 

Rich

Hello There Rich and Everyone,

 As I have too OM, there is a world of information to be found within the membership of this forum, and alot of Fun...


jack KA3ZLR

I am kind of the new kid on the block here. Have learned a lot from some of the posts here. I finally broke down on 11/19/07 took and passed my Tech test. I have been in and around radios since the 70's. Been on AM and will always be on AM. Started "free banding" in the 80's,,,,, yea ,,,yea  I know,,, "Bad Mac",,, "Bad Mac",,,I have a AA Degree and worked in the Electonics industry for about 10 yrs.
Most of the knowledge I got was from reading,,,actual hands on and my design work. Two reasons why I didnt try for my ticket befor now was "the dreaded code",,, :o,, and the sarcastic and pompous attitudes of some ham folks!!! Seems that every time I asked a question,,, I got  some of the same things that have been said in this thread,, with a "better than tho" demeanor. I agree that some folks are not doing any work or getting their hands dirty and learning. But with the degrading, and taunting remarks that have been posted is it any wonder why fewer and fewer are even interested in the world of amature radio. It would have been nice to have somebody help, (mentor) me along the way. It just didn't happen.  And it still isn't in other areas. I was received here with warmth and acceptance. Got a lot of questions answered and have learned a great deal since I joined. I am hopeing that I can still get good info and direction from you guys that are more knowledgable than I. I plan to continue learning and will achieve "Extra".
Have a great day
Mac

Good for you, Mac.  We all learn from each other or should.  It doesn't matter how long we have been a ham radio operator we still have plenty to learn.  As in all walks of life there are some who feel they are a cut above everyone else.  I have found that in the AM community that number is very, very small.  One of the most rewarding things you can do in Amateur Radio is to see "newbies" advance.  Some folks are better at teaching or "Elmering" than are others, but I feel all amateurs have a desire to help their fellow operator or at least I hope it's that way.  Some of us, like me, may not have much technical knowledge to share, but a kind word of encouragement goes just as far.  Thanks for being here, Mac, and all the others who are just starting out.  It's a wonderful hobby and there is plenty of room for everyone.

73,
Rick/K5IAR

Hello Rick,,,
Thanks much for the kind words.  I feel kind of good that I studied, had some practical experience and just a "little" bit of knowledge to help me over the first hurdel. :) I have no intentions of stopping here. As long as I can learn and get a little bit better then my plans are to obtain the Extra ticket. I may not know all the proper words or correct jargan "yet" but this old man is gonna get there. And I have worked AM for all these years,,, dont see any reason to stop!! I think we have talked before via e-mail,,, Again thank your words of incouragement.

73's Mac,,,

And you will continue to receive help. Just ignore those who would rather P&M than help.

I enjoy elmering.  I also used to teach licensing classes in the 90s, at the local radio club.   In retrospect, I stand guilty as charged of being an arrogant jerk in my first post on this thread.  Comments like mine, don't make for a receptive learning environment.  We all have to start somewhere.  As others have said - if questions aren't asked by people, things won't be learned.  I've found this group to be one of the most helpful & giving internet ham groups I've ever encountered, learning much in the process.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

Now there is something I got right off the bat P&M,,,LOL,, I know what that means ;D I think that the people I  "bumped" into along the way were not AM'ers. But if I spoke out of turn, I ment no disrespect to anyone here at this forum.  It just that those other folks were just plain smart azzes. But as I said,, the people here have been great,, informative and very helpful in questions I have already asked. So my plans are to be around here for a long time, with lots a questions and to give whatever I can to contribute to this forum. Nothing beats AM!!!!!!!
Thanks to all.....
73
Mac

ZGC,--Tom,
I know we have talked before on 75,--and we both DID agree on many issues(problems)
with the ARRL, and I found you an interesting guy to talk to on the air.

As I mentioned before,--I thought I might be getting back into a "rats nest" by attempting
to discuss, or "air" my opinions on this issue.(for the umpteenth time)

It was NOT my intent to "tweak" or get you or anyone else upset.

AS far as "sharing" and "helping",--ask most anyone who knows me personally,--I have
always been willing to help a newcomer, and have also been willing to ask for help if
and when I need it.

I do not blame the newcomer for the "system", but the "system" is what it is, IMO.
Again, -- it was NOT my intent to "tick you off", and if I did so, I apoligize.

                                             73, K1MVP
                                                  

Rene,

No, you didn't tick me off, and I never take anything like this discussion personally.

A long, old-buzzard editorial transmission follows, which should explain my point of view a little better.

We've got our whole lives to come to a consensus on this, and I'm sure we will someday.

--Thom
Keep Away One Zorched Ground Conductor

I just want to make sure I'm not leaving the wrong impression as a result of my passion for this particular topic.

I have seen with my own eyes/heard with my own ears this wall grow between generations of ham radio licensees. It's not at any one point in history, but different people seem to have given up on The Future Of Ham Radio(tm) at different stages of change in the status quo.

There are some who say It All Went To Hell In A Handbasket(tm) when incentive licensing came about. Others beg to differ, insisting that moment was when the VE program was put in place. Yet others would insist that moment happened with novice expansion. Another crowd would assert that the no-code tech was The Straw That Broke The Camel's Back(tm). Then, there's the bunch over in this corner who say code elimination was ham-radiocide.

No matter where these lines are drawn, altogether too many of the people who hold these views have fallen into the trap of using these views as an excuse not to help those that clearly give a damn and want to learn, all because someone's lack of knowledge at a given moment somehow disqualifies them from ever being provided that knowledge.

This thinking is Just Plain Broken(tm).

I earned my Novice in 1991 (check your calendars, that was a while ago now) through the VE program. I studied my ass off since the mid '80s (only half-assed the code for years, which is why it took so long). Never had an elmer, but never had to crack a single book between getting my Novice and getting my Advanced a few years later.

I could have easily walked out of that session with my Tech license, but opted to stop at Novice. Why? Because nearly everbody I heard on the air up to that point had already made up their minds that anyone coming on the air with an "N1" 1x3 callsign wasn't going to be worth talking to.

Well, many of those people never learned a damn thing from having their licenses, only because the people who would talk to me (I had a "KA1" call, so I was obviously a good boy, right?) wouldn't even acknowledge the existance of any "N1" call they weren't already familiar with, let alone answer any of their questions.

So I've watched/listened, over the last 16 or so years, as all these new licensees have struggled in the dark, having only each other to ask questions of, either to be met with "I don't know, either" or worse: someone who gives a completely bogus answer in a way that makes them sound like they know what they're talking about.

Now, after all these years, I get to listen to those who refused to rake the lawn complain about all the damn leaves. Worse, I'm expected to take this as some kind of valid complaint.

Pardon me while I gut-laugh.

Having said all that, let me point out that the primary reason I get on this board (or for that matter, operate AM) is because somehow that all gets checked at the door. This is one of the few places in ham radio where someone can ask a simple question and actually get an answer. Not a "you should know that already, you idiot", but an actual answer that's actually correct.

No, I'm not aiming this rant at the AM crowd. This is for ham radio in general. Fortunately, the AM crowd are some of the last willing to give an answer to a question, so I'm hoping I am addressing a crowd that already recognizes how much better off many of these new hams would be with the right kind of encouragement.

No, we can't save them all. Just like the rest of humanity, there are a whole lot of people holding licenses who simply aren't going anywhere. There always were, at every point in Ham Radio History(tm). That doesn't automatically mean everyone whose license may have come about a different way than ours doesn't deserve the effort that someone else once put into us.

We may not be able to help them all, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help as many as we possibly can.

If nothing else, it would make our own on-air experiences that much more tolerable.

Again, none of this is aimed at anyone here, but I'm coming up on two decades of want to get this The Hell Off My Chest(tm), and well hey, look... here's an opportunity now!

I hope I cleared this up for anyone who may have thought I was saying any of this to spite anyone in particular or draw anyone into some kind of debate. Nope, just the goatcheese editorializing, P&Ming, and getting a few things out of his system while The Getting's Good(tm).

If you read this far, I salute you. I do tend to old-buzzard. Thanks for listening, I'm done now.

'nite!

--Thom
Kerosene Apparatus One Zooming Golf Cart

p.s. Those items marked "(tm)" might just be someone's trademarks, or I might just be goofing off. You be the judge.

Nicely stated Thom. If you think about it, new hams not knowing as much as they did in the past (let's just go with that premise for discussion's sake) is far less of a problem now. Why? The friggin Web! Instead of having one local Elmer, a newbie can have dozens of Elmers, and access to volumes of good info with no more effort than effectively utilizing Google or similar. Use the force Luke.

At the risk of stirring things up....It seems to me that everyone kind of forgets that in the early days of Ham radio all you had to do was pay a license fee to get your ticket.  That is if I am remembering my history correctly.

I dont think so, no even in teh days of the FRC. :-*

When the FCC created, in effect,  the new license classes, they should have created new names for them.    Then those of us who got them under the old regulations would not feel so bad about having our accomplishments devalued.   

This kind of issue ALWAYS becomes a good pissing match. ::) ::)

I have and will always go out of my way to help out a newbie. I may get a little acid tongued and sarcastic here, but that is uaually in fun. Anyone that knows me personally knows what I'm about. If the older hams dont make an effort to help out the newer ones our whole hobby will turn to shit! In my newbie days I got quite a few pointers from the others around me. This is not just true of ham radio, but other hobbies, and life as well. When someone that you think knows more than you talks, you listen. That is the way that you learn things. Short and simple.

But as a newbie you should EXPECT an occasional "poke in the ribs" from some of the elders. It is usually done in fun and is a right of passage in any hobby. We have all been on the receiving end of that a few times or so.

However............. one thing that is an annoyance to one who "has been down that road" is when a newbie comes around and starts to try to "strut his stuff" like a bantam rooster with his chest out and his head high and pretend he is someone he is not. As the old saying goes "dont talk the talk unless you can walk the walk"!!  Lets face it, in whatever circles you travel, you have to pay your dues to get to the top. I have been there many times in life.

If a newbie comes to me for help and is humble about his being a newbie, I will always go out of my way to help him and teach him.
That is what life is all about!!

However.............. If a newbie comes around me and pretends to be what he is not, I'm gonna set a trap for them. And I'm gonna have fun with them and chastise them anyway I can. Its all a matter of paying your dues. Like I said before dont "talk the talk unless you can walk the walk!!" 

As far as the code thing goes, dropping it may well be the best "shot in the arm" that our hobby has had in years. I dont have a problem with it. But it would be nice if those of us that did it did get some kind of "boyscout merit badge" for having done it. Some kind of recognition would be nice.

As far as the testing structure goes, I still feel that they SHOULD publish the questions, but NOT publish the answers so there would be a little more research and learning / retention with it instead of memorization of answers. When I took my extra written, I walked in cold and passed it. I never even looked at a study guide or answer pool. What I found was pretty interesting, most of the questions were stuff that a good home brewer / builder allready knows and uses! A lot of it was stuff that we take for granted!! Go figger.

I used to help out an amateur radio explorer post some years ago. It amazed me how many of those kids had extra calls!! Lets face it as kids they were able to easily learn to copy code and memorize answers. It came easy to them, but none of them even knew how to solder!! I have since looked most of them up recently, and most of them are no longer lisenced!! Go figger, easy come, easy go!

                                              The Slab Bacon

I second the observation that at least he had the gumption to take the cover off his radio and start asking questions.  That's how it all starts with anyone.

The key word in our hobby is "amateur" and many in our ranks who went off into technical careers forget that it is a hobby populated by all types of people. While the concept of IF filters may still be covered in the General Class exam syllabus, the ticket itself is not a degree or a professional license, nor does it assure any basic level of technical competency. A ham ticket is basically a filter to establish that the licensee has some passing acquaintance with the rules and regulations governing our hobby. On a different level, sitting for the exam helps the licensee to learn the rudiments of how radio communication takes place including nuggets of physics and radio theory.

I've been licensed for over 30-years and have always maintained that some hams take this hobby much too seriously. Their hubris too often acts as a killjoy for someone's budding interest in ham radio.

73, Jim
WA2AJM/3

Thom,

I went through the same things to an extent, you went through, to get licensed.  I tried studying on my own in 7th grade, and flubbed up the exam.  I went to the local radio club, took the Novice licensing class on Xmas Eve Day, and passed, getting my license in the mail in Feb. 1978.  After that, ham radio almost died for me. 

The local club, made no effort to support the newbs.  No contact was maintained with those of us who took the Novice licensing class.  My parents had the mindset that a 14 year old shouldn't spend more than the cost of a cheap CB for ham gear.  As a result, I almost let my Novice Expire in 1980,when it came up for renewal (luckily mom saw me throwing out the Form 610, and talked me into renewing my license).  I didn't get on the air until 1982 (right after High School graduation). Even then, I had to sneakily buy an HW-16 & HG-10B VFO behind my parents' backs (dad was quite irate that I was using money that I needed for college, to buy radio gear).  I still had no support, so I happily clunked away in the Novice bands, until I transferred to the Univ. of WI to finish Engineering Degree #1.  There, I was finally able to join a radio club that I had access to on a regular basis (B.A.R.S. -  W9YT), and learned about the VE exams being reality (and not just a possibility). I got my General in 1986, Advanced in 1993, Extra in 1994, and the rest is history. 

OK, Buzzard transmission off - the point I'm trying to make, is that I was lucky to even keep my license.  Thom was too.  Most of us who had no help, ended up giving up on Amateur Radio. I don't know of any others from my Novice License class, that are still licensed.  I just realized that I seemed to be heading in the same direction of a  "no support" mindset that many OTs have. That's not good.   By the same token, we also need newbs, who are willing to ask questions, and not blow off the answers.  Still, if knowledge isn't given by us, all of the questions in the world won't do a newbie any good.

73,
Ellen - AF9J
On vacation,and heading out the door soon to look at cheap guitar amps   

Well... yes and no, I'd say.

We have much easier access to reams and reams of information that were previously more difficult to get our hands on. Frank Zappa said it best in Joe's Garage: "Information is not Knowledge".

Most of the newbies flock to the same places, QRZ and eHam. Not to slight those who run those sights (although Fred did royally piss me off some years ago, that's not relevant to this), but the numbers are still stacked the wrong way: 500 people who don't have the answer (or have it totally wrong) to 1 person who has the right answer.

I know, because I've tried to participate in a positive way, only to find there's no way you'd ever see my post because I'm not accosting random strangers and screeching loud enough. The noise floor is just too high to make an effective dent there. It's like trying to find a fart in a jacuzzi.

So, okay, let's go to the ARRL website, then. They may be politically bankrupt, but the first two or three chapters of their handbook were usually a decent crash-course in electronics (in spite of their attempts to revise history such that AM never happened).

Let's see, now... I can read all kinds of different press releases about how the League is patting itself on the ass for some foxhunt / dxpedition / petition / bake sale, no problem. Oh, you want information? Sorry, that's gonna cost you. Yep, we care so much about this hobby that we're going to demand money for access to the information that you as a ham really need.

Sure, the info is out there, but it's scattered in thousands of disparate pages across the dubyah-dubyah-dubyah, and sometimes kept behind locked doors.

About all you have left is this very site. Thank God we don't berate newcomers the way a lot of sites' participants do. If we could pool our collective knowledge into one bound volume, we'd blow the ARRL Handbook completely out of the water.

So your point is well-taken, Steve, but I think the fundamental premise still stands, mostly from sheer numbers alone, though perhaps in a modified form compared to 10 or more years ago.

--Thom
Kilovolts Alter One Zorched Gate Crasher

Yes in this case.  I was generalising about the subject overall.

You are correct, in that the info is dispersed. That is the very nature of the Web. But you severely limited your search space to Amfone QRZ, eHam, and the ARRL sites. I agree, other than this site, the rest of those are largely useless. But there are 100's if not 1000's of other sites that can easily found and accessed by spending a mere 10 seconds on Google. Many are sites where one can ask questions. More are static sites that contain the answers. To write off 99.9999% of the Web is to completely miss my point.

Just one example. I wanted to build a K9AY loop antenna system. I knew little or nothing of the details of the systems and had no details on how to build one. With just one Google search, I turned up dozens of good links with incredible amounts of detail on the system, its performance, construction details and tips, improvements, modifications and numerous variations. Not only that, the search also yielded sources for parts, details on winding the transformers, grounding concerns and comparisons to other antennas. With that one simple search and a few hours of reading, I had a complete understanding of the theory, design, construction and use of the K9AY antenna system. I was easily able to build one without ever leaving my house; I ordered some of the parts on line too! And the cool thing is that I could have done the same thing if I lived in my current location or Timbuktu.

I would estimate to do something similar in pre-Web days would have required at least one trip to the library and/or book store, or mail ordering a book, a trip or two to various parts suppliers (or mail ordering), and/or rooting through old QSTs or similar, and/or trying to track down someone on the air who had the needed knowledge and getting them to spill their guts. I'm sure this effort would have been not less than a week, if not weeks. And depending on where I lived, the length of this effort could have been months.

So really, even if every existing ham out there was a big jerk and didn't help the newbies, the newbies could still tap way more info than they ever could in the past. That said, I do recognize that having someone actually talk you through something or being physically present is a great thing and something the Web really can't replicate - at least not yet. ;-)

Rich,
      There's no need to feel nervous by posting your questions here, or asking for help whilst you're on the radio. It's one of the ways you'll learn things. I think all of us learn things in different ways. First is by tral and error on our own part, the other is by learning vicariously, by asking the help of others. The other is to read, read, read. Regardless of how much you read on a topic, you'll ultimately find it necessary to learn by doing, and hook things up yourself. If you run into a roadblock (as most of us frequently do), the answers aren't always in a book. You'll need to ask the help of others.

Within reason, there are some topics that we all should know as holders of a General or higher class of license. Since AM is specialized; it falls outside of the realm of "mainstream" or appliance operator type of radio operation. Even those of our ranks who have say a Icom 706, a small antenna tuner, and a G5RV, will have questions about it's operation, band conditions, etc etc. The more specialized you go, the more questions you'll have.

I think I speak for everyone here by saying PLEASE post your questions. You'll almost always get a helpful response. If you exhibit that you've tried to do something yourself and run into trouble, at least you've showed initiative on your own, and didn't expect something to be handed to you on a silver platter.

If you have interest on "Boatanchor" type rigs, as some, if mot most of us do, you'll inevitively run into trouble, and will need to enlist the help of others.

Bear in mind, that just about all of us came into our knowledge by a combination of being "Elmered" and trial and error 

I gave those examples because QRZ, eHam, and the ARRL are the first places new hams or prospective new hams go to find information on ham radio (so they're screwed before they even start). I never said the net didn't exist outside of those sites. I'm not talking about you and me, I'm talking about sites that purport to be a place where hams can get the information they need.

That's not "severely limiting", that's called "relevant examples".

BTW, The Web was never meant to be 10,000 disparate, disconnected sources of information. That was never supposed to be "the very nature of the Web". We already had that with usenet, gopher and other DARPA-era information services. The Web was meant to tie all these sources together. The fact that search engines are a necessity is proof that the plan didn't come off as intended.

Trust me, I've been on the net since the early 80s (10+ years before the general public was allowed in), I remember all the hype behind NCSA Mosaic, HTML, HTTP, and how every single source of information would just naturally point to every other single source of information. It was a great idea, it just never happened that way.

I know, because I was there.


I got your point, Steve. Just because you haven't changed someone's mind doesn't mean they missed your point, okay? It drives me nuts when people say things like that!

Sorry, but I don't have time to scour the entire net to come up with a few more examples just for the sake of this discussion, or to satisfy some arbitrary statistical minimum sampling volume. I didn't "write off" anything, because I'm not offering a complete soup-to-nuts analysis of What's Out There(tm). Why you would expect me to is beyond me. That would take years, and my posts are long enough already.


That's great, if you already know what you're looking for, which you obviously did. Bad example.

Can you go to Google, tell it what you want in an antenna, what your physical restrictions are, what bands you want to work, what kind of performance you're looking for, and have it suggest some antenna designs?

No, you can't, and you didn't. You heard about the K9AY antenna somewhere, and looked it up. Apples and oranges. When you can do that, I might accept the premise that Google has replaced the need for elmering. In the meantime, not a chance.


All of which are things you still have to do, the only difference is the lack of a trip to the library (unless you don't actually own a computer, then guess where you'd be going for net access).


So why does each new ham know less about radio than the last new ham? Actually, you're about to answer that for me:


BINGO!!

I knew you'd see it my way!  ;)

--Thom
Kraft Advertisement One Zesty Grated Cheese

Depending on how well you define the search parameters, I'd say you very well may be able to get that using Google. Conversely, you aren't necessarily going to get that from an Elmer either. And I must point out, I never said Google was a replacement for an Elmer.




I was there too and I never heard those claims, at least not by anyone who actually knew what they were talking about. Search and info retrieval work has always been a part of the Internet scene (actually predates it). Google is but one present day incarnation.


Strawman. Provide legitimate proof this statement is true. Even if it were true, it's irrelevant. It's not about what you know when you get your license, but what you learn after. There are many ways to learn. Elmering is but one. It is not the only one or always even the best one. That's all I'm saying.

I completely agree with you. All of us should do more to Elmer or whatever you want to call the process of recruiting and mentoring new hams. If every ham Elmered but one person, we immediately double our ranks!

Actual Google search

directional, 160 meters small OR size "receiving antenna"


First link returned:

Receiving antennas : Antennas: Receiving
A Small Wire Loop Antennas for 160 meters - Low noise, receive only coax loop .... The K9AY Terminated Loop - A compact directional receiving antenna ...
www.dxzone.com/catalog/Antennas/Receiving/ - 48k - Cached - Similar pages

What's up with this Elmer thing?
Last time I looked Elmer was associated with white glue!  ::)
Now I'm not being racist here, it's just that Elsie apparently is Elmer's beau, and they both be black & white bovines whose names and faces are closely linked to the world of white glue. So now, what does that have to do with helping people in Ham Radio? I mean, really, if it's HAM radio, wouldn't "Porky" be a better fit? Besides, the guy who helped me most when I was a novice and newbie was named Bob.

Porky's! Now there was a great movie.

A direct response to something you said is, by definition, neither a strawman nor irrelevant, Steve.

You know full well there can be no "legitamate proof" of any subjective statement, so you set yourself up for an automatic "win". That's an ancient usenet deflection tactic that I stopped falling for eons ago.

We agree that there is a paucity of elmers in the hobby. Let's just leave it at that and abandon the semantics argument. I think we've beaten this thread pretty well to death by now.

--Thom
Killer Agony One Zipper Got Caught

It's not about a win or usenet tactics. Maybe it is for you, but don't project that onto me. That's also another usenet tactic.  ;-)

Ref:

http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=12742.msg94637#msg94637

My elmer............

That is truly quite a message!

Bear,
      You never "Elmered" or have been "Elmered"?

      I've been "Porked" a few times myself - hi!

I've been "Porked" a few times myself - hi!
[/quote]

I guess your definition of "porked" isn't that same as mine,
or you wouldn't have told that...Hi Hi

Reminds me of the time 20+ years ago, I was at the Charlotte
Hamfest talking to a old friend who was in his 80s
when another old friend, also in his 80s walked up and one looked
at the other and said "you're looking mighty gay today..."
I thought to myself that if someone said that to me I'd punch him in the nose.

Words mean different things to different generations I guess.

Ron

NOW, THAT'S QUITE A MESSAGE!! :o :o

I guess your definition of "porked" isn't that same as mine,
or you wouldn't have told that...Hi Hi

Reminds me of the time 20+ years ago, I was at the Charlotte
Hamfest talking to a old friend who was in his 80s
when another old friend, also in his 80s walked up and one looked
at the other and said "you're looking mighty gay today..."
I thought to myself that if someone said that to me I'd punch him in the nose.

Words mean different things to different generations I guess.

Ron
[/quote]


Ron,
     Vernacular is a funny thing. In late 19th Century New York City, "Gay" meant being a prostitute!

BTW, Did you ever find that elusive knob you were looking for to restore a receiver you were working on? I looked through my knob stash and unfortunately didn't have one. If I did, you would have owned it.

Hope to hear you on the air sometime, AM, of course!

Best Regards,
                 Joe Cro N3IBX

Have you gone bezerk???

Listening for that little Voice in the Wilderness.........

Happy Thanksgiving homecoming week

[quote author=Vortex Joe - N3IBX
BTW, Did you ever find that elusive knob you were looking for to restore a receiver you were working on? I looked through my knob stash and unfortunately didn't have one. If I did, you would have owned it.
[/quote]

Hi Joe, yes I hope to catch you on 75 AM sometime too.
And No I have not found the EIS/GR knob, I'm beginning to think
that there are no more of them out there.
A good friend gave me one he had so I only need one to complete
the Leutz C-7 Special.
I know they didn't make many of those radios, but there's just
got to be one more knob laying out there in somebodies junk box.

For those that don't know what we're talking about, here's
a link to a page with photos of the elusive knob in question.

That's a nice Leutz I saw in the pics of your stash,
I'd love to see a shot of the inside sometime.


73 all, happy AMing

W4Ron

.

HAH! Touche'!  ;D

I guess this is another thread we'll have to revisit on the air someday. I'm getting real good at quick-tuning the Junkyard Dawg to the 3725 neighborhood. I hear you on, but you're always gone by the time I get there.

Besides, we still have that major league baseball discussion we haven't finished yet.  ;)

Okay, guys... I really am done now. It's safe to get back in the water.

Thanks for listening, and be sure to tip your waitress.

--Thom
Killer Album One Zappa's Greatest Compositions

For sure. It's much easier on the air. I can talk faster than I can type. 3733 or 3725 seem to be FB from 4PM till at least 6 PM.

Junk Yard Dawg. Good one!

  " Thanks for listening, and be sure to tip your waitress. "

My wife wouldn't like that too much................  klc

It will be a Vegas act soon.

Let me get this straight.  KYV directs our attention to a poor newbie who doesn't know what a filter does in a radio.  He gets everyone stirred up about how rotton new hams are.

Everyone goose-steps with Don and slams the poor new ham with their postings.

Then, KYV says....oh yeah, I just read his biography and he may indeed seem "worthy" of his general class.

I certainly hope I never ask a dumb question on this holy forum.

Sideband Pat WB9GKZ

Well Pat.... ya didn't. He didn't attack the newbee. Nor have I.

The question is a valid one. The fact that a general class licensee asked it is the point of contention. By the time one is a General he should know what a filter is and does, at least the concept !

That the testing for this knowledge is non-existant is the point. That's how I read it.

So the answer to Don's original question is No. A general class operator should not be asking that fundamental question. That he is, indicates a fault with the technical requirements for a license not the newbee himself. After all..... he followed all the rules and proceedures to get his ticket. Obviously, that path has changed over the years.

"goose-steps"?

Hey, just get it done already and call Don and the rest Nazis! Sheesh, have a beer or something.

Even my wife knows what a filter is. And she has a general call  8) 8)

She's had a "Frank Filter" for years!   ;D

Just goes to show you what listening to SSB for extended periods of time will do to you.   ::)

Just curious Pat: if your thing is SSB (enough so that you make it part of your user name), why would you hang out on a board devoted to the AM mode? Everyone is welcome, of course, and many of us use more than one mode. But considering your recent posts, it seems a bit....dubious?

Now, if you were DoubleSideBandwithCarrierPat, things would be different of course.