The AM Forum

You've heard of the "$4 Special" (http://www.qsl.net/wb1gfh/antenna.html)...

...Now meet the "$424.00 dipole"!


"7-Band OCF Dipole Antenna (5,000 Watt) - $499.95! Summer special: $424.96!"

http://hamcall.net/7bandocf.html

 :P (speechless)

Wow it would be cool to see the end insulators go up in flames with 5 KW on it

I sent a note to Buckmasters asking if the dipole would stand up okay under a 375 watt carrier and 1500 watts PEP output.  I received a quick response stating, "...it should do a good job for you."  He also stated, "Be sure to verify that the SWR is really right (using no tuner) before running AM.  Good SWR with no
tuner equates to a cool balun."  It sounds pretty good, BUT I don't understand the price tag?  Why so much for a piece of wire. a balun and a couple of insulators?  Maybe I'm just cheap.

Rick/K5IAR

I already know I'm in the wrong business. I should sell my soul and then start manufacturing and selling "high end" Ham Radio products.

Ahhh, I read about this dipole, in a thread in qrz.com.  Most think it's a ripoff.  Others think that considering its sturdiness, it may be worth it.  Personally, I'd just build it myself.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

Uh..... Ummm....gee....

Don't know WHAT to say.....!!

It doesn't even come with a chunk of coax......


Can't believe it.........


And to think ... if I was getting 3 times my money for a product.... I wouldn't make my customer wait 2-4 weeks before I shipped it.....
(I'd get it out right away before they came to their senses....)


Oh well.....

Obviously made for them by Alpha-Delta:
http://www.alphadeltacom.com/dxocf.html

I should start making one out of 1/2" copper pipe (the flimsy grade) and say they'll handle 10kW, and sell them for a BARGAIN price of $220. How much does it cost to advertise on eHam? ;)

No, you're going the wrong way. Make them out of international orange (avoid aircraft collisions) color, oxygen-free (crisper highs and lows), teflon-coated (superior dynamic range) multistrand wire. Gold plate the connectors (Better impedance transfer). Sell them for $1000 each.

From the Alpha Delta installation directions link:
In my opinion I don't think RG8X would qualify as "good quality" especially at 3KW.
THey also said,
My $70 (in parts) open wire fed dipole has been up for 5 years now. It has probably been through 30 winter storms. Does this mean I should replace it?

If this is a HAM band only antenna how come the hamcall site has a 5KW version?

Oh yeh, one more question. What does a "precision designed 6:1 balun" mean?
6.000000:1.000000 maybe?

Regards
Q
W1QWT

LOL!!  Yuppers, you'll have killer transmit audio, with all of the highs and lows you've gotten back, that were lost on that "cheap" copperweld!

73,
Ellen - AF9J

My setup:

Two broken (only 2 out of three sections) push-up masts... center and end:  free, scrounged.
15 feet pvc pipe for the other end: free, but probably paid for coupler section and pvc cement for another project: free

Half of the 100ft spool of 450 ohm ladder line: $11

Rope: I think I paid $2

Insulators: Free, center is a scrap of pvc pipe, the ends are sawed off tops of drinking water bottles.

Wire: separated strands of old cat 5, free, neighbor gave it to me.

Oops, forgot the aluminum painters' pole, 12 feet, that extends the apex of the vee: $12

Grand total, $25. Man, I'm a gold-chainer!  ;)

You used CAT 5 to make an antenna?   Cool!  I did the same thing in college, in 1986, to make the 4 1/2 foot tall helical vertical I used on 160, with my FT-101B, indoors at the time.  We had a 20 foot scrap piece of multi conductor networking cable in the hamshack at W9YT (the Univ. of WI club station).  I basically pulled out 7 or 8 wires.  I soldered them together till I had about 135 feet of wire (about 1/4 wave on the low end of 160).  I then wrapped it around an old broomstick handle I found, and voila!, 160m rubber duck antenna.  Being stupid at the time, I fed it with the center conductor my 15 foot scrounged piece of RG8U, and fed the coax braid with a wire, that went to the electrical outlet ground (see what I mean? - dumb).  I had to put an aluminum pie tin on the top of the antenna, to dissipate corona effect from the RF field.  When I tried a stinger made from aluminum ground wire, sparks emanated from the stinger tip!  Due to the different colored wires I used (some of which were striped), my roommates said the antenna looked like a giant candy cane!  Before you laugh, I got the design out of the 1973 or 74 Handbook.  It worked pretty good on CW, and I remember having phone QSOs out several hundred miles (although I did have some height advantage - my apartment was up 4 stories).  Total cost - I think about $15 for a cheap SWR meter (I had sold my MFJ t-match w/SWR meter to another ham 3 months previously).  I still have the SWR meter, stored away in my storage space in the basement of my building.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

So who thinks there is a resistor across the balun. It's a feature preventing ice build up in the winter.

Ah, yes Frank.
A copy of the B&W Folded Dummy Load Dipole.
But I will say this, it does work, lossy, inefficient, but if even some of the RF gets out, you're on the air. In NY I had a B&W unit on my test bench, amazing how well it did work, dummy load and all!

I also had a friend lacking a 160 meter dipole, suggested he tune up his 75 meter dipole using a "tee" connector off a large broadcast dummy load. Worked it did, efficient it was not.

Still, I too do not get the price, just don't see the value there.

YUP
We used the B&W dummy load antenna for the Y2K joke. And they worked pretty well on those ALE Motorola radios. 100 watt SSB and the aerial was only supposed to be no more than 30 feet from the ground (NVIS). The company spent $50k for 10 of those radios and we put the dipole with aluminum poles. B&W couldn't meet the demand at that time for their magical antenna, and the ALE HF networks that most other utilities were scrambling to assemble before the dreaded Jan 1st. DOOMSDAY!!!
160M was very poor performance. 80M and above was ok for just 100watts. I guess a KW linear would have helped.
Fred

Ellen,

Yep, I unraveled the 4 sets of pairs, but didnt unravel the pairs themselves. Short of using reclaimed CRT deflection yoke magnet wire, all my antennas have been made with chintzy wire and have survived a brutal Southern California winter!  ;)  (hey, the wind kicked up to almost 40 mph once!)

When one does crap out, I'll look at it as an opportunity for improvement.

As far as the "fancy" B&W stuff... when the solar cycle is on its way up again, I want to see how many 20m slopbucket qso's I can make on a Saturday afternoon with a 100w lightbulb for an antenna!

FAKE ALERT
They've NEVER improved on the Gotham V-80, by cracky!!

Only $18.95 FOB Miami.

Add $4.00 for Railway Express shipment.

Not to sound like some kind of self-righteous bastard, BUT...............................................

Anyone who cannot build their own 1/2 wave flat top dipole antenna should not even be a ham!
I'm sorry, but that is one of the first things you learn in your novice days!! I feel that it is absolutely disgusting for someone who calls himself a ham to buy a pre built dipole antenna!!!!!!!

Unless you are blind, or have some other physical impairment that renders you physically unable, there is no excuse for someone to buy a pre built flat top!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                                                                      The Slab Bacon

Believe it or not Frank, there were quite a few comments on the qrz.com thread, that said what you just said.  You're supposed to know what length a dipole is supposed to be (after all, there are questions on the test that ask you how long a dipole would be at a certain freq.), so certainly anybody with half a brain should be able to build a dipole.  Other than being a little more tedious (due having to move the feedpoint a few times, to find a workable multiband happy medium impedancewise), OCF dipoles aren't much harder to make.

You'd be surprised how many hams are even hesitant to build a simple dipole.  One of the posters stated that he had bought one, and it worked well for hime.  And yes, he knew he could build one, but being a relative newbie, he wasn't sure his building skills gave him enough confidence to do so.  Because a friend of his took one of these expensive OCFs with him on the Peter 1 Island Dxpedition, and raved about its sturdiness, and lack of need for a T-match, he was sold on the antenna. 

My living situation has always forced me to be creatve with antennas, and as a result, do a fair amount of expirimentation. It has been frustrating at times, but it has also been rewarding, and at times fun (although it's no fun making solder connections when the temp's 20 degrees, and you have no gloves on, so you can handle the antenna wire or feed, while soldering).  It also taught me a fair amount of info about antennas.  Expririmenting with antennas can be pretty cheap to boot.  Still, there are plenty of hams who would never consider building antennas.  Last year, there was a relative newbie in the HFpack group, who kept on responding to antenna posts on the Yahoo board, asking where he could buy the antenna such and such had just posted about, or portable antenna that could do such and such a thing for him.  It got kind of annoying, until somebody politely told him, "hey, plug and play is OK, but try building (and expirimenting with) your own antennas.  It's not hard to do, and can be pretty fun."

BTW - here's the qrz.com thread for the $424 dipole:

http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=d73b73eb5cb68d37240055f118657d6f;act=ST;f=7;t=161002

Many respondents also thought there was a nice lossy resistor in the balun, helping with the impedance matching.  Like I said above, I'd prefer to build my own (minus the resisitor of course).

73,
Ellen - AF9J

Hey Ellen, tell us how you really feel!  ;D

My personal antenna gurus follow.
All honorable men, all not selling an antenna product, all with distinguished professional backgrounds.
A most interesting read is Maxwell's discourse with the ARRL regarding "conjugate matching", well worth the read --> http://w2du.com/Chapter07.pdf
This later caused some friction between himself and the League, an interesting story.


Walt Maxwell W2DU --> http://w2du.com/
(http://w2du.com/about_files/image002.jpg)


Kurt N. Sterba (pen name) --> http://www.wr6wr.com/newSite/products/software_cd/wr1999.html
(http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/books/2129.gif)


Lou Cebik W4RNL --> http://www.cebik.com/radio.html
(http://www.cebik.com/w4white.gif)

I built my ocf dipole several years ago for maybe about 50 bux max.  It's rugged, completely weatherized with the proper RTV, (another thread someday) center support, and using 14ga. insulated wire.
I wanted something that would present nice impedances at even harmonics that my crappy tuner could handle.  Plus, building an ocf dipole would fit my tress in the yard better than a conventional dipole which I had before.  Also, building the conventional dipole just seemed, well....boring.  After much research and exstensive modeling with EZNEC, yes, feedpoint impedances at even harmonics are quite nice.  But please don't take my word for it.  Just model it yerself and see and compare.   Sooo, I do not think their is a magic resistor in this commercialy made version. 
But this (and that) said, $424 is obscene to charge for a wire antenna. 
Perhaps it's their marketing of making this antenna seem more exotic to less experienced hams that emboldens this company to charge this outrageous price.

P.S. Yes, there is small rfi issues with the imperfect balance of this antenna.
But no more than what I had with the conventional center fed. 





 

$60 or $400, it’s all in the marketing. The $60 antenna has to compare itself and compete with all the other ~$60 antennas. It’s hard to hype, “our antenna is better” when there’s other antennas all selling for roughly the same price. At a much higher price, the hype can be more space-bound with some “informative text, some pretty pictures, throw in a chart, etc. Higher price to many means better quality, better performance, more tolerant of weather, etc. and are willing to pay that price for that perceived perception. Donating products to some DX or contest expedition, and then getting some good posted feedback, also helps the market the perception. Likewise, if you have a history of good products, which may not be inexpensive, the price for this antenna to the end customer can be more understandable. Plus, it provides the manufacturer and dealers more price wiggle room if the market becomes soft.

You had RFI issues with a center fed flat top?

Yep,
Actually was a center fed inverted vee, ladder line fed.  (same tree for center support, apex at bout 45 ft.)  Complaints (minor) from the xyl
about hearing me on the  vcr, phone, computer speakers, etc. run about the same as is now with the ocf dipole.   Man across the street also hears me on his computer speakers, but he actually like it cause he's a ham (not active) ,he likes to hear my AM qso's as it brings back some fond memories for him, I guess.
;-)
Why is this surprising?  Most of the hams I talk to who have similar small
lots always get into something somewhere. 
-jim

 

"My antenna looks like a box kite!"


(http://www.isotronantennas.com/1isotron_40-80.jpg)

 I run a 2 element phased array which is 2 full size dipoles .The wire I made them with was free.The 500 foot of 75 ohm coax was free and so were the poles that they are mounted to .The nice EF Johnson insulators I used were free (got them in a free box of goodies at last years Winston Salem hamfest).I had to buy 3 pl259s and the rope and a T conecter.Oh yea the relays I use to change the phasing were also free.So mabee I have 20 bucks in the whole antenna.It will take 550 watts of carrier and old buzzard all you want.Trust me I have tested it.And I bet you a hole in a doghnut that my 20 dollar antenna would blow the doors off that overpriced so called factory antenna.The point is dont be afraid to build your own antenna its easy and most of the time they perform better than the ones you buy!

Here is that posting in its entirety:


How in hell are you ever going to develop "trustworthy" skills if you don't start at the beginning?

That MUST include coming to your QTH and installing it, too !!!   :)

I can't believe that price....and it is the "Summer Discount" price....jeeze....we better load up on these, eh?

Jim KF2SY: Guess I've been lucky, I've never had RFI issues with a balanced antenna, but that only applies to my particular installations. I understand each QTH has its own unique situations and consumer appliances to contend with.

Don KYV: I am always surprised that new hams lack basic soldering skills. But I guess in 2007, soldering is no longer a part of ham radio.

Hi Don,

I just got off of the 'zed, and I read your response to the guy. I wonder if he'll come back with another excuse.  One of his excuses, was that he was never completely sure he made things right, and as a result, would probably never really be confident of his own antenna work.  Ugh!  Get real!

73,
Ellen - AF9J

P.S. - I goofed in my earlier post. It was different ham,than Mr. No Confidence, whose friend took one these fancy schmantzy OCF dipoles to Peter 1 island.

All of this raises my concerns over the state of ham radio.  I'm not talking about the "code" issue or the band allocations issues.  I'm concerned with the apparent dumbing down of hams.  I can't even imagine a ham back in the 60's when I was first licensed not having the confidence to build a simple dipole.  It takes zero ingenuity and almost zero ability.  The layout and dimensions are in every ham manual if the formula is too difficult.  I think this is a real indicator of what the "appliance operator" has brought to the table.  It takes absolutely no knowledge of radio or radio circuitry to turn on a modern rig and talk or tap out cw.  If the antenna is not matched well simply hit "Tune" on the multi thousand dollar rig and viola! you're good to go.  So, why would these same people have any confidence in themselves or in their ability?  I'm not condemning anyone for their choice of radio or their way of operating.  I am simply stating what seems to me to be the cold hard reality of ham radio.  It is or has turned into a commercial entity and the art of homebrewing and antenna construction is slowly fading into the past.

...that's a whole nickle's worth!
Rick/K5IAR

Yes, I think homebrewing is a small minority subset.

Shame, but I think its a result of too many people taking "WARNING: no user serviceable parts inside" too seriously over the last quarter century.

Hey, as long as I had a screwdriver that fit the screws, it didn't stop me.

It always amuses me when I hear someone on the air describe his station, and mention that he is using a "homebrew dipole", as if it is supposed to be something out of the ordinary for the dipole to be built by the operator, using a roll of wire, some insulators, a feedline, a measuring tape and a few other tools.

I suspect many 21st century hams have little interest or time in "homebrewing" and/or antenna construction. Simple or not, it's just not a high priority. For many, it's probably more fun and interesting just to get on the air rather than diddling 300 pounds of hardware to get up and running or building an antenna no matter how "simple" one might perceive it to be. Buy the off-the-shelf rig with the auto-tuner, get the ready-made antenna; hook them together, plug it in, and you're good to go. If they have the bucks, and are satisfied with their choice, why chastise them for their decision. "Homebrewing" and antenna construction will be around as long as there are hams who have the interest to do them. The 60's are long gone. There was never any guarantee that ham interests and ham backgrounds of the mid 20th century would continue to be the same today. Like all things in life, after almost 80 years, amateur radio is also evolving. It's about time.

Yeah, but come on, $424 for a freakin dipole... This must mean there are a LOT of hams with a LOT more money than sense... Where are they, we should all fleece them!

;)

In that case, there's no difference between ham radio and a cell phone.

If you read the QRZ thread, the hams that admitted buying them, bought the lower priced 300W or 3KW antenna.

Yaesu high end transceiver tops around $14K. Icom 7800 around $11K, that new German transceiver $14K to $16K. We got medium priced rigs anywhere from $1.9K to almost $6K. And all, before antennas, microphones, and other "must have" accessories. "more money than sense" - not really - the ham market seems to be supporting the pricing - hams want what they want and are willing to pay the price for it

Can't call CQ on a cell phone; can't work DX on some remote island with a cell phone; can't works contests with a cell phone; can't work AM, SSB, CW or PSK with a cell phone; can't work moonbounce or meteor scatter with a cell phone. Need I go on?

Time is very valuable to many people, including hams, these days. They have no time to screw around trying to homebrew something for weeks or months, or trying to reconstitute some rig that's been handed around a dozen times or more. Plug and play works for them because it satisfies their needs.

Everyone has made valid points.  Some of us just see the hobby from a different perspective.  Saving money, or time, is not always the endgame.  There is a level of satisfaction achieved which comes from building, creating, or restoring something...it is unavailable at any price, but requires a sacrifice of time, but a desire to do so.  An added benefit is learning something new.

I am a "handyman" kind of guy.  I do my own auto repairs (to a point - Clint Eastwood, aka Dirty Harry, "A mans gotta know his limitations"); I learned plumbing, electrical wiring, roofing, drywall, carpentry, etc.  (Thank you "Time Life").

I know my limitations...and when to seek out a pro and pay the going rate.

Those of use that desire to be "hands on," will continue to do so...those that do not, will probably remain at arms length.

Those that prefer to buy a $425 dipole will continue to do so.  Should the marketplace decide that $425 is excessive, the pricey dipole will not sell.  Buckmaster will then have to lower the price to regain marketshare.  Or they may fall along the wayside if another company offers a similar diople for a lower price.  This is referred to as a Market Economy. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market%5Feconomy

zOMFG!1!!11 $425 for a diaper pole??!!

The K1CRA Web Store is selling 40m diaper poles for $17.95:

http://www.k1cra.com/catalog/product.aspx?productID=1334

I  built my own  1/2-wave dipole from parts.   I purchased the 150' of stranded copper antenna wire, the 100' feet of 16ga ladder-line, and a "Ladder-Loc"  feedpoint insulator.  I assembled the whole thing and hung it up on my tower.   I use home-made  standoffs to keep the feed-line away from the tower, and "transpose" the line down the tower (mild twist in the line).   The connection to the house is via large bee-hive feed-thru  insulators.   It works brilliantly.

Total cost:   $115.

But for some, time is money, and they don't mind spending the money for a  quality product. 

I agree, Pete.  Many people prefer the plug and play method of ham radio and I applaud them for doing what they enjoy, the way they enjoy doing it.  However, my original point was that this is leading to less experimentation, fewer innovative break throughs by the ham community and a general lack of technical knowledge on the part of ham radio operators.  Whether that's a good thing or not I have no idea, but I do know it seems to be the way of the future.  As earlier stated it's been a long time since the 60's and technolgy has moved forward by leaps and bounds.  My opinion is, a lot of those leaps and bounds were a direct result of the ham radio opereators of the 60's and earlier.  Whats' gonna happen from this point forward if that pioneering spirit, that desire to experiment and push the envelope is no longer alive, will we continue to make progress as before?  Time will tell and my simple observations will not sway the course of time and progress.  I do want to state for the record, I agree that each and every operator, each and every ham who has taken the time and made the effort to get thier ticket, no matter when or under which rules and regulations they got it, should be allowed to operate as they please and without hassle from anyone. 

Rick/K5IAR

Actually Rick you don't have to look to far to see innovation, experimentation, and maybe even bringing a product to life in the current amateur radio world.

A bunch of hams brought the software defined Flex products to market. Lots of software and hardware experimentation and it's on-going. The HPSDR stuff that GFZ and others are experimenting with is great stuff and all developed by hams. We wouldn't have the Elecraft K2 or K3 until a bunch of hams got together and developed the products. Icom's D-Star is a result of  a bunch of Japanese amateurs developing the necessary requirements. Look at the Steppir antenna products; adjustable elements on your beam from the shack, developed by a ham.  Check the advertising area of QST and CQ to see all the innovating products that hams are bringing to market as a direct result of "garage" development and/or experimentation. A one year review (any year) of QEX magazine would roll you over with the amount of experimentation, innovation, and development that hams are, or have been doing, over the last years. We now have amateurs who have conquered 2-way communications well above 24 GHz. Couldn't have done that back in the 60's. The pioneering spirit of today's amateur is alive and thriving. The "60's and earlier" innovations were great; they served many purposes back then and still some purpose today. But, time marches on, and so does the type of amateur radio experimentation and innovation.

Excellent point, Pete.  I guess my old eyes failed to see just how much progress has been and is being made.  That's a problem with an old buzzard like me, we sometimes live in the past and the future just flies right past us.  My old brain is way too far gone to grasp all of this new technology anyway, so thank goodness for the new guys and gals who are forging onward.  Thanks for the reminder, Pete.

Rick/K5IAR

DEES darn sharp software guys are trying to take over.
Us hardware pukes need to keep em honest.