The AM Forum

Well its up to $3.19 on average here in northeastern Indiana.  We will make it to Dayton for sure, but might be discouraged from taking some longer trips later this year.  I hope that the situation eases soon.  Maybe we need some new ideas for alternative fuel sources.

How about a car that runs on road kill?  We frequently see a lot of dead deer and various varmits at the side of the road.  Heck, all you would need would be a big shovel....load 'em up into the hopper.

Some kind of processor that would convert various organic matter into methane or other useable fuel would be needed.  Maybe it could also make use of road apples deposited in the road by Amish horses that we occasionally see around here.  You might even be able to load that material "on the run" with a scoop on the bottom of the vehicle and a conveyor belt.  Wow! I wonder how many miles-per-"chunk" you could get?   ;D


73,  Jack, W9GT

Caddy is coming out with that new Escalade that runs on bald eagles.

Soon enough, the animals would run out and the murder rate would quadruple overnight. That scoop idea would morph into a claw that shoots out and grabs people walking on the sidewalk and sucks them into the grinder.

Whataya expect when the EPA hasn't let a new refinery be built for 30 years ?

Even at 110% capacity they couldn't keep up with demand.

2007 demand levels with 1979 capabilities
 ???

Yikes!!! A new twist on the Soylent Green concept.

 :o

73,  Jack, W9GT

Hey maybe the people of Iraq are good for something...

Oil ain't the problem Frank. We can get that.
But we can't do anything with it when we get it.

We need to say piss on the epa and take a large step backwards in technology. Years ago we had large industrial engines that ran on
"Bunker oil" which was nothing more that crude oil with the trash and debris strained out of it. Why not cars and trucks that use it. it only takes basic diesel technology to make it work!! It just smells nasty  ;D


                                             The Slab Bacon

A couple of summers ago I bought a rustbucket clattertrap POS little Mercedes diesel sedan for about $250. It was a good engine in a car that was practically screaming to be junked!

about 40 hours of my time and about $700 in parts, it was all straightened out. (You can see where this is going, hard to come out ahead!)

Anyway, this was during a time like now where fuel prices were spiking. Diesel #2 was $3.33/gal down the block.

BUT, you could go to Costco and get a 4.6 gallon cube of Soybean oil (meant for cheap salad dressing) and that would come out to around $2.70 a gallon. Just get a big funnel and pour it in the tank. ;) Though you had to keep a couple gallons of real diesel in there too, to make it easier to start when the sun wasn't out... and this is warm CA!

The slug of a car actually went a little bit quicker on this stuff! Major side effect was that the exhaust smelled like Chinese stir-fry.

Anyway, sold the car for a slight profit to my neighbor who drove it for 6 months, then decided he wanted a big Lincoln now that gas prices had settled down. He offered to sell it back to me for a third of what he paid for it... Duhh, sure! Sold it to someone else for a bit more than the neighbor paid, and only THEN did I come out ahead.

I kind wish I still had the thing for a mobile radio car... As previously mentioned, diesels have BIG alternators, and NO ignition noise!

Then someone GAVE me a really ratty Olds diesel sedan... Man, that was the pokiest V8 I ever drove... but it had an exhaust leak ahead of the muffler and sounded awesome!  We poured all sorts of crap in that tank and it ran on anything... rancid french fry oil, etc. The best was used, filtered 5w-30 (water) motor oil that came out of the rice-mobile: James Bond Smokescreen(tm).  !!!

But yeah, dont try any of this on any car thats still worth more than it's scrap weight!  ;)

-Jason kf6pqt

Bud, We sure need to build more cracking plants but the big guys bought up all the little guys and shut them down so only one gang in town..... the gang of greed.

Man, I could imagine blowing down the 405 with some cool fuel mixture with a pile of smoke behind me smelling like "jump in the box" exhaust.
that would feel like flying an F4 in full AB...CHP hot on your trail

Gee, I only tried marvel mystery oil and water injection when I was out there.

I figure it cost me about $300 between time off and gas to go to Deerfield to buy 2 small variable caps and a $5 power supply.
So glad everyone was nice and friendly after spending all that cash to hang out.

I'm not so sure that it's the EPA that is keeping them from building refineries.  As long as they can hold the fuel supply down, they can ask higher prices and save construction costs on new infrastructure to boot.  Yes, they would have to to build refineries to 2007 standards.  If the oil co's really want to build more of them and can't, it's more likely the same "not in my backyard" attitude that exists in many localities that has made it difficult if not impossible for broadcast stations to erect or upgrade transmitting towers.

But is there really a shortage?  I haven't seen any gas lines lately, nor any "out of gas" signs on any pumps.  There seems to be plenty to go around, just a little higher in price.  It may take more of today's Dollarettes to pay for it, but it's still cheaper (in terms of real money) than it was when the price peaked in the early 1980's.

If you ever lived anywhere near Houston, you would know exactly why the EPA sets emission standards for oil refineries and chemical plants.  Just take a stroll through Pasadena or Toxic Texas City.

I kieep hearing $5 & $6+ dollar a gallon prices coming. they also
have been predicting hyper inflation coming. 6 bux a gallon would
be a start of it.

Yes!  How many other businesses can you think of that actually are rewarded and make more money for reducing production or holding it at the same level?  Part of an interesting and increasing trend of higher prices for less goods and services.  Can you spell INFLATION?

73,  Jack, W9GT

It's true Don. 4 times in the last 10 years BP filed for EPA permits, with all the impact statements and millions in filing fees, to build new refineries on the Gulf coast of Texas. All turned down by EPA mandates on environmental protection.

"course they kept the filing fees !!!

AND Frank: just remember .... for every $ of profit per gallon gas an oil company makes the feds make $2 in taxes.
So ....  who's really screwin' us?

Propane to a diesel engine is as nitrous oxide is to a gasoline engine. ;)

Hmm, and those turbodiesel Benz's are often found for cheap...

Bud, I know who is screwing me and think there needs to be a hangin on the mall.
Dean, 10T in the hole get ready

Running a vehicle on road kill is not as far fetched as some might think. I read an article about a train in Switzerland or Norway that does just that; it runs on methane from the rotting innards from a slaughter house. They even gave the mileage in cattle/mile but I don't remember the numbers. I would not want to work in the "Fillin Station."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/25/cow_powered_train/

Above is the address of the article on the methane powered trains & busses. They are in Sweden, not Norway or Switzerland as I said before.

Well, the incentive has increased!  Gas price here is now $3.399 /gal.
Let's see, where did I put that shovel?

 :o ::)
73,  Jack, W9GT

Bud:

Here's the problem.

The less product the refineries deliver, the more profit they make.

So why should they build any new refineries?

Seriously. I'm not being political, that's the fact. No company is going to invest in the expense of building a new refinery if the end result is a lowering of fuel prices and less profit.

The biggest refineries in the Northern Hemisphere are in the Carribean- The Virgin Islands. Hovensa is on St. Croix and is one of the largest refineries in the world.  Even though there's be NO opposition, they won't expand the place. The oil companies won't build refineries down there, even though the locals would welcome them.

It's all about money, not the EPA. The less you produce, the more you profit.

It's screwed up, man.

The prices of fuel here are $3.099/Gal. for the low grade 87 Octane.

It is funny how back in the 70's oil crunch prices skyrocketed, yet never came close to the prices of today. In fact, they never went down! After the so called Gas Crisis was over the prices never dropped back down below $1/Gal. (At the time around here it was around $0.65/Gal)

It's funny how people always blame the president when in truth Oil is no different than the stock market, its the investor that sets the prices and not the Oil Co. or the President! I'd love to see how many Democrats blaming Bush/Chaney for high oil prices have interest in the oil market! I'd be willing to bet quite a few are making a killing! But you'll never hear about that in the liberal bias media!

To top off the high gas prices the lame brain Governor here in Maryland is talking about raising the fuel taxes another $0.35! Typical Democrat.. Raise the taxes! He claims he wants to use the money to improve public transportation. More than likely its to force people to use public transportation because they can't afford the gas! Is the state Gas Taxes set by the Governor Bush's fault too??

Then there is the EPA. Oil Co's are waiting in line to drill for more oil, and build more refineries but the tree hugger lobbyists and bureaucrats wont let them! Now we've got China and Chavez talking about angle drilling into US shores to steal the oil off the shores of Florida!

Its all about greed, and the greediest of all is not Big Oil, its the investors and the Govt. without having to blame the president because they're all guilty as charged before you even get anywhere near the executive branch!

And posts like that are not encouraging hamfest attendance either! I thought this board agreed to avoid the political digs? So far this thread has insulted the Iraqi people,Democrats,and anyone with enough common sense to care about their environment.This board is clearly biased ;) . Come on now boys & girls,if you have posts stating things like what a good idea it would be to drop a nuclear bomb on people then you really are not any better than those cb'ers,75 meter nets, or other boards that are often disparaged here now are you? We can all agree that there is a  disconnect here from what kinda board most people on the "politically charged" thread stated they wanted,and some of the posts on this thread for example. Moderators,what say you?                   Rob Welch

The cost of fueling the vehicle was the thing that kept me from going to NEAR-Fest.

Bud is exactly correct and here is why:

In most other industrial markets where profits are being made, entry into the market buy new producers (i.e., new competition) is not discouraged like it is in the oil & gas business. We see upstart companies enter existing markets all the time with new, better cheaper versions of the product to take market share away from the established companies. I remember when Collins, Hallicrafters, National & Johnson were the established ham radio producers. Their products were expensive ($600 in 1958 = $4300 today). Enter Yaesu, Kenwood, etc. Prices came down & products (ultimately) got better.

In the oil & gas biz an upstart faces huge obstacles to entry in the market. Can't drill here, there or anywhere. Can't build my refinery here, there or anywhere. So no new product in the market. So supply stays where it was & demand keeps on growing. Price has no where to go but up.

As my smart Alec teenage daughter used to say to me "Do the math Dad".

Terry
W8EJO

this whole gas price scenario just plain SUCKS. Big time!! Why are the prices going up?? Simple, it ig getting into the summer / traveling season. Why are they raising the prices: Simple, because they can!!
The oil companies know that we as Americans would much rather pay a high price for it instead of waiting in long lines to get it.

If the government tries to step in and regulate pricing, we will have gas lines again. I dont think the American public would stand for that. So to keep the plumbing flowing, we have to pay the price.

Due to the Americans love for the automobile, and the fact that we have accepted long commutes and no longer want to live where we work. We have screwed ourselves, and left ourselves at the mercy of the oil companies. Dont just blame the oil companies blame ourselves as well.

As was said before, we have fallen prey to the laws of supply and demand. Keep the demand high, keep the supply minimal, get maximum price for quantity produced due to high demand. MAXIMIZE PROFITS!!

                                                         The Slab Bacon

Hi Mark,

Didn't realize that you had lived here.  Yes, we seem to enjoy the highest gas prices in the state.  Been told that it has to do with the fact that this market (Allen county and environs) has one of the highest ratios of vehicles to population in the country.  It is always interesting to watch the patterns of price increases....seems like it is always a 20 cent increase...recently taking place on Tuesday or Wednesday...then drops back a nickel or so for the weekend...but does not drop back to the original amount before the hike...just keeps going up.  I know that there are many technical excuses for the high gas prices....some may be valid, but many are not....bottom line is.....it hurts the pocket book severely and causes us to curtail extra curricular activities and non-essential travel.  I have to drive to Decatur every day to work (25 miles).....not a terribly long commute by east or west coast standards, but still adds up to a lot of non-optional driving just to get to work.  
Hey...we will adjust.....we always do....we take it on the chin for awhile...then move on to other ways of doing things.  Life certainly is not always fair, but the challenge is to prevail over adversity and keep on keep'in on.

73,  Jack, W9GT

P.S.  It is Route 3 that goes through Huntertown and up to Kendallville.

A Threat to nationalize the oil companys might scare a few speculators.

The supply is the key!

In an ever more industrialized world with a growing population the demand will (obviously) continue to grow. How can it not?

We MUST remove the barriers to supply increases.

1) Make it easier for a new company to build A BLEEPING REFINERY.

2) Make it easier to drill for new oil.

What has happened to gas prices will happen to ANY product whose demand grows while supply is kept artificially low by market constraints

Terry
W8EJO

 

Joe, we can only dream but our government has been nationalized by the oil crooks. So the fox is guarding the hen house.

Take every Lobby A.H. and hang them on the mall as a fourth of July celebration....I would buy a ticket

Terry,
         I agree with you 100%!! It sounds like one hell of a business opportunity for someone. However i dont think investors would be ready for the pllitics and other bs that comes along with it.

And then you get the pissers and maoners who want it, and know that we need it, but cry....................... "I dont want it in my back yard"

American drilled oil, and American refineries would put a lot of Americans back into good paying, productive jobs!! "Smokestack industry" is what made this the greatest country in the world. We need to get back to our roots!!

                                          The Slab Bacon

Right on Frank. We have become a society of button pushers.
producing nothing

Frank,
        Since we are both close to the same age, I know that you will remember this. At one time just about everything consumed by this country was made in this country. (Except specialty ethnic food items) When you picked a item up off of the shelf in a store, you automatically KNEW that it was made here. Americans wouldnt buy foreign made consumer items back then. (mainly because they were inferior to our own) We didnt NEED any foreign produced materials, so we were independant and proud of it! American made products were the standard of excellence all over the world.

Somewhere in fairly recent times that has changed. Now we are at the mercy of others. We probably now import more than we export. This is not a good thing. If you spend more than you earn sooner or later you end up broke. I am really sick and tired of seeing "made in China" on everything in the stores! And the overall quality of it sucks as well. As I said before we really need to get back to our roots.

                                                        the Slab Bacon

I haven't heard of any specific case where a proposed oil refinery was nixed for environment reasons except for a couple of cases on the west coast and citizen opposition.  For that matter, they're not even expanding their EXISTING refineries. Why not?

Solely blaming the EPA is a red herring, in my opinion. It's an excuse, getting lamer all the time.

The president issued an order some time ago to expedite expanding our petroleum infrastructure, yes, they ARE drilling more wells here in the west but they STILL haven't expanded our refining capacity.

It walks like the proverbial duck. They're NOT going to build any more refineries as long as the situation exists where the less product they produce, the more profit they make. Why should they? There is NO motivation to do so. Every time there's a refining problem, they get more profit for every gallon of refined fuel they sell- And that's a fact.

Another thought: Would you build a multibillion $ refinery needing to operate for 20-50 years to pay itself off with our uncertain energy future?
Will the increased use of alternate fuels cut demand for refined petroleum in the future?

Isn't that EXACTLY what the President and Congress are proposing?

So if the American plan is to cut demand by using alternative fuels, WHY build additional refining capacity? That would be like investing in a whaling ship in the 20th century.

That's probably why instead of building NEW infrastructure, the Exxons and Mobils simply buy each other's assets out instead of building new infrastructure.

New refineries could be built outside the CONUS where there isn't any EPA to contend with, and that's not happening, either. The Mexican oil monopoly and/or the oil companies could build all the refineries they want across the Texas border on the Gulf, a few miles of pipeline away from existing infrastructure. Cheaper labor, too.

They're not.

We all want simple answers and there ain't any out there that are wholly truthful or satisfactory.

Frank,
Right on. These friggen yuppie idiots are whores. they buy cheap and don't care who it hurts. We have become the chink mart generation.
I bought my son a basketball hoop set up. We were mounting it on the frame and my son was holding a wrench as I tightened up the nuts.
I only bought it because I didn't have enough angle iron to make the frame.
First one was a 1/4 - 20. I put about 20 ft lbs on it and it snapped right off. I'm thinking this thing must be made of lead to be that weak. look at the pet food thing. Now we import crap food from a country that barely feeds itself. WTF OM. Are we that friggen stupid. They are friggen putting plastic in with the food.
Look at this link below and really get pissed off. LOCK AND LOAD!

http://usawakeup.org/

Hi Mike,
I tried.  Didn't have any takers.  Maybe this fall though.

What the worse you run a refinery the more you get to charge for the product. Now that is some motivation

Futures market report:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/fc?s=CLM07.NYM

Not looking good for December.

Mark, MSB, good thoughts.

I have a way-conservative acquaintance who once stated that it was his desire that we use up all of the "cheap" Arab oil, drill Alaska and open the pipes so we use up the petroleum deposits all the faster, then fuel hits insane prices and we have to turn to alternatives all the quicker.

Who knows! It's something to think about.

For the reasons I previously mentioned, I'll bet that it's tough to get financing to build a new refinery. Government policy is both supporting and discouraging the investment. What a screwy world we live in.

To residents of Europe, Americans must sound like a bunch of cry-babies, ranting about $3-a-gallon gas.  Last time I was in UK it was running the equivalent of nearly $5 a gallon.  I am told that it is now over $6 per gallon there and even higher in some countries on the continent.  Even as nearby as Canada, the last time I travelled through it was substantially more expensive than south of the border.

Prices of Premium in Europe 1999-2007 (http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html)

Worldwide  prices of Regular a year ago (http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/byprice.exclude.html)

Maybe we should all take our SUV's with us and move to Caracas.

Do you ever see the food they sell at the hamfests?
Tell me the end results of that fare could not be bottled up for processing.
Reducing your "Carbon Footprint", via hamfest food, who would have thunk?

Rather than "Octane Rating", we could use the new standard "Flatulence Factor".
Just think of the effect on third world countries like Mexico, this can be a new found source of wealth, heck it might even reverse the illegal immigration problem!
I bet the greenies would jump on this, they could even add it to "Green Credit" scam.

I can see it now, Hollywood clebs would feel good, they could switch from the "one square of toilet paper" theme, to the "eat natural, smell natural" tag. Would even boost American farmers, wow, its like we struck oil all over again, right in our rear end yard.

All brought to you thanks to the magic of Ham Radio.
Just another public service of the guys with the tubes, "Saving the planet, one chili hotdog at a time."


(http://www.farts.com/cards/fart1.gif)

[quoteSomewhere in fairly recent times that has changed. Now we are at the mercy of others. We probably now import more than we export. This is not a good thing. If you spend more than you earn sooner or later you end up broke. I am really sick and tired of seeing "made in China" on everything in the stores! And the overall quality of it sucks as well. As I said before we really need to get back to our roots.quote]

Well, stop voting for Republicans and Democrats. Vote for someone else, anyone else. Greens, Libertarians, Communists, whatever. Just stop voting for the same people that made the system you hate. They're all bought and paid for.

[
Well, stop voting for Republicans and Democrats. Vote for someone else, anyone else. Greens, Libertarians, Communists, whatever. Just stop voting for the same people that made the system you hate. They're all bought and paid for.
[/quote]

   Bingo!

Willie Nelson for Prez!

No, Drinky Crow for President!

Desiring a simple answer to a complex problem is self defeating. Or just plain silly, depending on how blunt you want to be.

Build a gas producer plant for your car or truck.  They run on most any solid matter, depening on design.  Wood chips are cheap and plentiful. You could als chip up a bunch of brush- no need to use large healthy trees for fuel.  (this would be a big help in limiting the wild fires, harvest the brush), grind to fuel and burn to run your SUV or better yet a generator- get electricity and heat/hot water too.

The cool thing is they are relatively easy to built.

You could also build one to run on junk mail... too bad you couldn't build one that would run on spam!!! 

(http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=73;type=avatar)

 I'll second that (hic)

Here's what I was saying about "The less you produce, the more profit you make". From a story in today's Bloomberg:

"...The profit margin, or ``crack,'' for turning crude oil into fuels has more than tripled this year. Turning three barrels of crude into two barrels of gasoline and one of heating oil provided a record high crack of $29.841 on May 11 in New York..."

This is bass-ackwards!

Let's see here. If the UK is paying over 7 pounds sterling per gallon and we are paying 3.28 USD per gallon, and our dollar is roughly 1/2 the value of the pound then we are getting a real deal.

The value of our dollar has dropped drastically over the last few years on the world market. Since we depend almost entirely on import merchandise, mostly from China, and China is dumping the dollar (and other US money investments) it takes many more of our dollars to buy imported goods.

But have no fear, behind the scenes action is taking place to rectify all this nasty stuff. The North American Union will fix (yeah right) all!!! No borders anywhere in north america. The illegal federal reserve notes will be replaced with the new and improved AMERO (like the EURO). Fun times will be had by all. Google the north american union and see the 50,500,000 results if you have doubts.

Enjoy the future.

Dennis
 

Huz,
The simple answer we are presented every year is just raise taxes. Here in Ct.
the trend seems to be shooting for about a 25%. My new place is closer to 100%.
So where is the logic in that.
We need a friggen tea party in Boston....down with king george, taxation without representation

looks like we have had our 200 years and now we slide. 

Heck the new conservative thinking is reduce taxes and spend more just put it on the plastic.......and all they need to say is God bless America. 

OK, if it's so profitable you'd think the market would be flooded with new producers all wanting to get their share of the glory just like any other market. That's how capitalism works (Read this. It explains it all:  http://www.econlib.org/library/Smith/smWN.html)

However, gov't has erected tremendous barriers to new producers. We cannot drill off the FL coast where we know there are huge known reserves(see:http://www.grainnet.com/articles/NCGA_Disappointed_With_House_Vote_to_Continue_Moratorium_on_OCS_Natural_Gas_Drilling-33986.html).

We cannot drill in ANWAR where we know there are huge known reserves.

This is Masochism (http://www.psychnet-uk.com/clinical_psychology/criteria_personality_masochistic.htm)

If all of these anti-drilling folks were around in the early 20th century there would not be one oil well in TX, OK or anywhere else in the U.S. and the entire economic boom of the 20th century would have never occurred. We'd all be walking or riding horses & scratching the ground for a living.

Terry
W8EJO

That's better than the money coming out of my pocket to feed some worthless welfare generation or to support Ted Kennedy's alcohol addiction!

Truth is the federal deficit does not exist! It's all on paper! The government does more wheelin' and dealin' then they do spending. Barters are made nearly everyday and the biased media only reports an inflated street value of the deal and not the fact that the deal was made the old fashioned way.. The Baker pays the Blacksmith with a loaf of bread for putting shoes on his horse!

The bottom line is oil prices are so high and gasoline is in such limited supply because of liberal lobbyists and a growing Socialized Govt not because "Big Oil" doesn't want to build new refineries and tap into other resources! I guarantee they would if the tree huggers and the liberal govt that supports them would stop putting barricades in front of them! We have all the oil reserves right here in the country to completely resolve all foreign oil demands and plenty of resources for alternative energy but we're not allowed to tap into it! Let's not forget that the majority of the price in todays gasoline is TAXES! Big Oil does NOT set tax rates and makes zero profit from them in fact they never see a penny! It's those fat slobs in Congress that make $500,000 a year salaries not including the under the table pay offs and campaign donations that get the most out of it! But then again, there are some people who still believe there is a 200mpg carburetor sitting on the shelf somewhere that some farmer made 60 years ago that Big Oil bought so they could prevent it from ever seeing the market.

That's like saying there is a transmitter that uses a single 12AX7 that can produce as much power as a pair of 833's but they don't want you to have it! Yeah right.. With a mentality like that it's worthless to even try to educate people these days because people will continue to believe what they want to believe and throw all forms of logic out the window!

It's just as bad on both sides of the fence these days you really can't trust either one of them no matter if they wear a D or an R badge! Both are equally greedy and equally stupid! And that doesn't say much for the voters who continue to vote them back into office year after year!

Truth is the federal deficit does not exist! It's all on paper!

Hey OM send me your credit card number and I will show how it works on paper.
The welfare generation has nothing on the 5T spent for nothing over the past 6 years. Where did that go? Quite conservative...now try and blame Kennedy for that.

Terry, here's an article on CNN I caught two days ago that expands on what I've been saying- It's NOT solely environmental concerns, the problem is multi-faceted.
Government energy policy isn't coordinated, more than anything, investors feel refineries are too risky of an investment.

Bill

--------------

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- It's the same story every year.

Each spring, just before the summer driving season, gasoline prices skyrocket. And every year, these four words appear in news reports nationwide as a big reason for the runup: "lack of refining capacity."

Then experts call for more refineries, politicians pledge to make the dirty behemoths easier to build, but guess what? Nothing really happens. Next year, repeat story.

So why hasn't a new refinery been built in the U.S. since 1976?

"There have been calls every year this decade for new refining capacity, yet no new projects initiated," said Geoff Sundstrom, a spokesman for AAA, the motorist organization. "Refining capacity has not kept pace with demand for gasoline."

First off, experts note, gasoline, like any commodity, is subject to big price swings. After all, in the late 1990s it was selling for less than $1 a gallon, hardly an encouraging number if you're a refinery exec looking at making a decades-long, multi-billion dollar investment.

While retail gasoline prices are currently near record highs at just below $3 a gallon, where they might be five years from now is a matter of debate.

Secondly, stringent environmental laws and effective community organizing have made it very difficult to build a new refinery in the U.S.

"Everyone is quick to say "look at these refiners, they're driving up the price,'" said Phil Flynn Flynn, senior market analyst at Alaron Trading in Chicago. "But if I wanted to build a refinery tomorrow, I couldn't do it."

And then there's the public's newfound concern over global warming and its supposed commitment to do something about it. President Bush himself has called for a 20 percent reduction in gasoline use over the next 10 years.

"What refining executive in their right fiscal mind would say, gee, we need to add refining capacity right now," said Drevna at the refiners' association.

For example, Drevna noted that expansion projects at the nation's existing refineries have had the effect of adding the equivalent of a brand new refinery every year. That increase came despite mandates for cleaner gasoline and diesel fuel, which take longer to make.

And the future looks even brighter.

"There is a tremendous amount of expansion," said Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst at the Oil Price Information Service, speaking of projects at existing facilities. "We will have a solid increase in North American refining capacity, but not for another two years."

Overseas expansion is moving even more quickly, with $300 billion slated for refining projects over the next 20 years in places like India, the Caribbean, Mexico, the Middle East, Africa, and the Asia-Pacific region.

"I think there'll be a concern that the world added too much capacity and refining will go in the dumpster again," said Kloza.

I've been riding a motorcycle to work the past week, and I haven't yet burned through two gallons of last year's old stale gas.

What does any of this have to do with gas prices? The point is there is no simple answer. You guys are flailing around like a bunch of fish out of water looking for an answer that doesn't exist.

Whoops, did I wander into the Inquirer by accident?

(Sorry, I just couldn't hold out any longer).

--Thom
Kilovolts Alter One Zorched Gate Crasher

Hmmm...Refined Cod liver oil.

Yo, huzMan, if there was a simple answer, this wouldn't be a very fun discussion, would it?

Why are we so dead set to send our cash to the saudi royal crooks when we have plenty of our own oil. Got a thing about my daughter walking around in a tent.

Well, to celebrate Memorial Day the local gas station is raising the price of gas about 2 cents a day. How American

Because the Saudi Royal Crooks are our friends and we love them >:(

Just buy the 60mpg Mercedes Smart Car.  ;D

http://www.smartusa.com/


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Dsc03218.jpg/800px-Dsc03218.jpg)

Bruce,
I bet I could run my '78 firebird 400 plus .03 on av gas for ten years and come out cheaper.
My buddy in L.A. says prices down to 3.29 from 3.35 this week.
Refinery just down the road in long beach

You might be right Frank.
The orignal smartCar concept was supposed to be very affordable, and a reasonable means of urban transport.
I'm starting to think that they might try to cash in on the "Eco-Green" mania and ask big bucks like Toyota does with the Primus.
Or take the Mini Copper approach and cash in on the "cute" factor.

Back in 2005, the pricing was noted as:
"Pricing should run between $12,000 for the cheapest model, and just over $20,000 for a convertible with all the available extras, Heidemann says. That's a markup of a few thousand dollars over the price in Europe, where Heidemann has been buying them from dealers."

Either way the car is at least 1, if not 2 years behind its promised introduction.
I have to think the Damlier (Mercedes) Chrysler split is not going to do this project any favors.

I'll keep my 18.3 mpg Volvo until things clear up, it hauls a good number more boatanchors than does the smartCar.  ;D

Talk to you tonight on the GHN.

Frank maybe she should shop in a more upscale store?

 Smart for  Mercedes. Pay the same price for half the car  ;)

I drive my wife's Prius as often as she'll let me.   It gets 48 in stop and go and 52 on the highway.    That's about 2X the highway mileage and maybe 3X the around town mileage of my twin-turbo fire breather which now remains parked most of the time.    It really gets those numbers too.   Put in a tank of gas, do all kinds of driving, check the mileage after 400 miles -- 48.   Not 48 EPA or saw-the-number-once 48.   It carries more stuff than the fire breather too.

In addition to keeping more money in our pockets it puts less money in the pockets of the sheiks. What's not to like?

Jon

Jon,
what was the cost though?

Cost per mile is the whole thing!! If it cost you $100k for a car that gets 60MPG and doesnt have enuff ass to pull an ant off of an apple core, what have you accomplished??

I would be better off driving my 1970 440+6 super bee for daily transportation again. (and it even gets better than 18MPG on the highway if I keep my foot out of it!!)

Reasonable mileage, and a vehicle that suits your needs is the real deal. High mileage with no power or comfort sucks. Tiresmoking power and luxury comfort (although desireable) is not practical either. The real deal is a working compromise between the 2 THAT FILLS YOUR NEEDS.

I dont want to give any more of my hard earned money to the oil companies that I have to, but I also refuse to drive an uncomfortable
pregnant roller skate either. But I really do miss the days of the "tail finned road locomotives".

Just think about what vehicle you buy, and buy one that fits your needs (not someone elses ego) and you cant go wrong!!

                                                     The Slab bacon

I have to haul ass so drive a truck. I get close to 20 MPG if I keep my foot out of it  5.3 chevy V8. I used to do 1 mpg better before they added corn smash.

Ohhh!!! You mean the "summer blend!! The special summer reformulation that is "Oxygenated" to reduce hot day emissions (and the size of your wallet!!) I hate that crappy summer stuff. I see a noticable drop in mileage (and performance) in my little ranger pickup. I average 25 mpg with about 1/2 highway 1/2 stop and go and a goodly helping traffic gridlock. I usually see around 27 mpg in the colder months. Yea I also see a noticable difference here as well.

Higher prices / less mileage, whats not to like?? At least for the oil tycoons!!

She bought it when you had to get in line -- no discounts.   I think the basic car was around $22K.   She added some extras that brought to about $25.    Then there was a $3000 tax credit that brought it back to $22.  Then there was tax and license that brought it back to $25.   Something like that.

Jon

Yeah, you've gotta love the reformulated gas/garbage.  I'm stuck with it here in the Milwaukee metro area.  And the worst part about it, is that the 4 surrounding counties have to use it too!  Ugh!  That's why so many of us around here have no use for the "ethanol is our fuel solution" agenda being pushed.  The mileage is about 80% of what I used to get with real gas in my hometown about 80 miles to the north.  Oh, but it will cut down on air  pollution.  Yeah, right!  You burn more fuel, and as a result any pollution savings is wasted.  As it is, much of the Ozone pollution that this area has, is due to the fact that Milwaukee's proximity to Lake Michigan gives it thermal inversions, ala Los Angeles.  So, much of our air pollution, is junk that blows up with the wind, from Chicago, and Gary, Indiana.

Here's another good one - oftentimes if people who live here have to make a trip outside of Milwaukee, and its surrounding counties, they fill up on real gas (for the better gas mileage), before they get back into the reformulated gas area.  Our esteemed governor, made a push to mandate reformulated gas, on the rest of the state (after all the ethanol lobby wanted to help increase business for the corn growers and ethanol porducers).  Luckily, that got nixed.  But the EPA has been threatening to mandate reformulated gas on all of the counties that are along the shore of Lake Michigan (including my home county of Manitowoc, which has a population of maybe 60-70,000 people), due to their ozone pollution levels not meeting federal standards.  Some of these counties (like Door County), don't even have 30,000 people in them.  What a crock, make them pay for the same Gary, and Chicago pollution problem, Milwaukee County, and its surrounding  counties, have to pay for.

Nope, I have no use (from personal experience) for the "benefits" of ethanol.  Here's some more food for thought.  Burning ethanol, creates different pollution problems.  One of the combusion products, is aldehydes (formaldehyde belongs to this class of chemical compunds).   Please forgive my rant.  I'm just tired of the ethanol hype.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

I pulled my little sports car out from winter storage a week ago.  It had a full tank of gas from the winter.  I've been driving it for a couple of days now.  Typically when the temp is around 75 degrees it runs like crap because of its high compression ratio.  What I noticed since I've been driving it that it doesn't run crappy in the nice warm weather we've been having.  I'm sure once I start running the new formulation because I'm just about out of the winter mix it will run like garbage again.

The other thing that concerns me is this push to conserve. I don't believe it will make the price of gasoline go down, maybe only temporarily.  With governments taxing fuel the way they do and when they see their proceeds go down they'll raise the taxes on a gallon fuel to compensate for their losses.  You're damned if you conserve and you're damned if you don't.

corn smash is great fuel but the price shouldn't be higher for less BTUs

your right Bob the goal is to pay more for less.
Interesting I notice crappy gas you have to push the gas peddle down further to go the same speed. More air and gas flow through the motor so more crap must come out.

Ethanol is simply a politician's tool for getting the votes of Iowa, Illinois & other midwestern farming states: See: The Many Myths of Ethanol   http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3204163

To lower gas prices undo the following government starngleholds on the market:

1) Build more refineries now. A new refinery has not been built in the U'S. since 1976 when there were many million fewer motorists. This will increase gasoline supplies & the price will fall.

2) Open up offshore drilling along the FL coast. This would boost U.S. oil production by 1 million barrels a day and gas production by 1.5 trillion cubic feet a year. See:
http://www.tbo.com/news/money/MGBZD2YJI0F.html. This will increase oil & gas on the market & will result in a price drop.

3) Drop the designer gas formulasfor every city & season which cause interruptions in our already maxed out refining capacity.

4) Open ANWAR to drilling now. this will bring at least 10.4 billion barrels to market thereby increasing supply. See: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/oil/anwar.html

5) Open up the Western states to oil shale production.

6) Allow new U.S. nuclear energy plants. This will decrease the oil needed for oil fired electric palnts thus lowering the demand & the price.

 Note that every problem is a government created problem. Call/write your congressmen & senators now.

Terry
W8EJO

More work to make the ethanol and Gasoline combine properly. Gasoline and Alcohol (Ethanol is Alcohol) don't normally like to live together without alteration of the two. So thanks to your local tree hugger you pay the price for the extra refining costs. Which is one of the reasons fuel prices go up every summer not just recently.

Ethanol isn't a bad fuel really, provided you have an engine designed to run on it. A standard Gasoline engine just isn't. That's why there is an obvious performance loss. But if the engine were properly designed to run Ethanol (Not Etho-line or Gasoline.) you'd never even notice the two would run pretty much the same and of course you put Gasoline or Ethanol Etho-line in a 'true' Ethanol burning engine you'll get the same result.. A noticeable lack of performance. Its all in the air/fuel mixture, ignition temp/timing and compression. You can build an engine that works both ways, but then you're compromising the performance of one or both fuels depending on the engines configuration.

Allot of race cars use Ethanol and some use Methanol. Both are run in what is called "Top Fuel" classes. If they're using it to turn record land speeds it can't be all that bad!

I just got back from IL, where on the radio I heard they have the highest gas
prices. I saw $4.05 a gallon for premium. My cousin filled at $3.75 regular. I filled
my lil toyota tacoma 4 banger for 46 bux! I hear 6 bux coming. (again)

deano

Dean,I filled my truck Sunday and XYL's GP Monday and topped off the truck Tuesday since they will raise prices in celebration of the upcoming weekend.
$120 for gas this week. We should be good for a few weeks in time for the next sticker shock.
I'm so glad the oil co.s are doing well.
Did you expect anything less from the two oil crooks.....

Well since the WX is nicer now I have taken to the use of my sons cool off road bicycle I gave him for Christmas. :). I live close to my work so I just walk there anyway. XYL hasta commute 30 miles round trip in her VW Jetta with 28 mpg so in a way were lucky I guess. Still going on any sort of a long trip will prolly bite into other things we could have purchased. The economic trickle down always begins there I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyla2fKodXE

Hey Frank

I think I said "Hi Gary" to you when we spoke Friday morning at Deerfield. I was in a real fog that day so forgive me if I did so.

The Radio Tart is still angry about that error

(http://www.cathuria.com/bcd/bcd_ginaface.jpg)

 more slopbucket net ;D

Alcohol fuels can make much more horsepower than gasoline fuels,
But.......................................

Yuou need to get a lot more of it through the engine to do it. the optimum fuel / air ratio for gasoline is around 13.5 to 1 by weight. that is 13.5 lbs of air to 1 lb of gas. For alcohol fuels it is approximately 8.5 to 1. Henceforth you need a lot more fuel (due to the lower btu/lb output) So alcohol fuels offer no savings in money unless the fuel can be had cheaply.

Like Randy said, you need much higher compression ratios, better ignition, and very accurate fuel metering systems to make it work properly. It is also very difficult to start a cold alcohol burning engine
on alcohol without priming it with something more volatile (like gasoline)

I have had my hands in alcohol burners in the past. I used to set up Hilborn fuel injectors for sprint cars, and was a crewchief for a privateer alcohol funny car years ago. We were constantly recalibrating the fuel injection to keep the engines making full power. Not to mention mixing other chemicals with the fuel as well. It was a real pain in the a$$!!
Ant there is also the humidity factor, that stuff is also hydroscopic, it will absorb moisture from the air.

Alcohol fuels (at least for now) are definately not the answer!!

                                             The Slab Bacon 

Bio-Butanol is a much better fuel than ethanol.

1) Higher energy content (110,000 Btu’s per gallon for butanol vs. 84,000 Btu per gallon for ethanol). Gasoline contains about 115,000 Btu’s per gallon.

2) Butanol can be shipped through existing fuel pipelines where ethanol must be transported via rail, barge or truck .

3)Butanol can be used as a replacement for gasoline gallon for gallon (e.g. 100%, or any other percentage). Ethanol can only be used as an additive to gasoline up to about 85% and then only after significant modifications to the engine.

Terry
W8EJO

Nice article that explains in plain english economic terms what the he11 is
happening with gas prices.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Commentary/Experts/Markman/Jon_Markman.aspx?msn=1

Good 'ol Eco 101, one of my favorite courses in college.
who da' thunk that as the US and China were coming out of economic funk (or sleep) about 5 ears ago that we would no longer have $1.40 ish gas at the pumps and oil at $27/bbl in 2002.  zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
wake me up when the economic cycle shifts from boom to bust.

guns and butter .....  supply and demand

You need to get a lot more of it through the engine to do it. the optimum fuel / air ratio for gasoline is around 13.5 to 1 by weight. that is 13.5 lbs of air to 1 lb of gas.


Oh Yeah.. I forgot to mention that...

For example, My friends Monster Truck runs on Methanol it has a 12 Gal. fuel cell, Full that gives him enough fuel to make a few laps around the areana then it's starting to starve.

BUT.. If an engine is properly tuned and you don't expect balls to the wall power like that it could be practical. You will loose performance to gain reliability, but with performance you loose reliability.. It's just the way things go! Problem is the American consumer still wants a 70's Muscle car that gets 40MPG.. Sorry Folks, its not going to happen even with super computer controlled fuel injection.

Here is one for y'all to ponder. How many of you remember the folklore tales from years ago about the magical mystery carburetor??

You know, the story goes something like: "This guy has invented a special carburetor that you can put on any car and get 50mpg but the oil companies bought him out so it will never be produced." or something to that basic effect. That story made its way through the gearhead community many times years ago.

Anyone with a little savvy knows that it was B/S as it defies one of the basic rules of physics. It takes Xamount of energy to move Xamount of mass Xamount of distance at Xamount of speed. It is as simple as that. So the thought of 5000lb road locomotives getting 50mpg is definately nothing more than a pipe dream (at least with the propulsion technology available today).

Well...... that magical carb is somewhat available as standard equipment on most of todays vehicles. Enter computer controlled multi port fuel injection!! By far more accurate fuel control than any carburetor could even hope to have. Even the very best carburetors of yesteryear were only a compromise at their best.

Its a shame, but we have the EPA and their crappy emission standards to thank for giving us back cars that run good again and give reasonable fuel mileage. Lets face it they are making some serious horsepower from today's small engines. Not to mention the hot rod potential!!  Now if High test gas was only $.35 a gallon again.........................................

                                            The Slab Bacon 

Frank,
A friend's Dad had a cool carb patent that he sold to the car co.s years ago. it used a wick rather than dump tubes and it got better mileage than a standard carb but as soon as fuel injection came out it was not a valid thing.
I was amazed with the injectors on the XYL's car they were brand new clean with 93K miles on them.
I do think they could get a little more dynamic range out of the fuel controls of today. I work in the same area as the guys who do jet engine fuel controls and we do EMI testing for them. You should see the color of the flame coming out of a F119 (F22 motor) or F135 (F35 motor) afterburner.
Nice light blue very hot flame. No more yellow with black soot.

WHAT?

You mean half the stuff in the JC Whitney catalog is bogus??????

Seriously, we need to keep looking at diesel technology. WV turbodiesels commonly get 40-50 MPG and they haul @ss, even more with some aftermarket reprogramming. My 8800# diesel pickup regularly gets 20 MPG or better and I drive it like an animal. A 40,000# diesel semi truck will get around 5 MPG, do the math at 1/10 the weight, that's 50 MPG to haul around a 4000# car. You don't need rechargeable batteries or insane technology. Are you an eco-nut and want to run a diesel on Mazola? Pretty much just pour it in the tank and go.

Too bad the GM diesels of the 80s were junk, they were slugs and gave the technology a bad name from which it still hasn't recovered. You just don't take a GM 350 gas engine, bump the compression up to 18:1 and expect it to last...

Years ago I had a Mercedes 240D that I got cheap because it was a dog on hills and such. Started hard in cold weather due to wear, but it still averaged 35+ mpg and it was a heavy 4 door sedan.

Just tanked up my Ranger 4 banger during lunch for $3/gal. It was 5¢ discount day, so all the other places were $3.02-$3.05. We're usually more expensive up here, being the only land-locked N.E. state and having to truck everything in. I think the people need to stop listening to the media creating the news. They are, in my opinion, the biggest culprit in all of this. Tell people there's an emergency and it's going to get worse, and sure enough - they'll panic buy. Go fill up the tanks because CNN said it's going to be $4 next week. Prices are heading down here for the last week or two after cresting around $3.08.

Doesn't solve any real problems as Steve points out, but we don't have to add to it either. 

GM's current line of small automotive diesels leave a good bit to be desired. As far as I'm concerned there is only 1 GM diesel, that is the good old 2 cycle Detroit Diesel. I just love those things. They always start, and they always run. You aint heard nothin so pretty as an old 12V71 wound up tight against the governor!! It is a sound all of its own. Being they were 2 cycle engines, they really sounded like they were screaming!! What a chunk of iron!!

                                                      The Slab Bacon

Yes, and they were able to run backwards. Put a heavy trailer on the back, be in a forward gear, kill the engine on an upward grade, let the rig roll backwards and pop the clutch. The smoke out of the intake is yer first clue...

Not recommended for too long since the oil pump ran backwards.

Wow !
A Very Hot topic indeed.
We ought to can this whole thread, refine it and sell it for the BTU's alone.  We could make a mint and solve the energy crisis, carbon exchange and global warming all in one fell swoop.

But running throughout all the discussions is probably the root cause.
Simple inflation.
The Hidden tax.  yer gov'mn't simple prints more money than it can back. Bizzness loves it that way. You'll snap up those credit cards.

Yeah, inflation; 3.5 to 14%/year. "Remember the Carter'moe."

Also Remember the old saw.
7% doubles yer money in 10 years; (-7 erodes it by Half in 10.)
10% doubles it in 7.   Minus 10 erodes it by Half in 7.

Ask yourself what your salary was in 1960.  Read all the old QST ads, Collins 75A's at $300, notwithstanding.
How many cars in the garage in 1940? 1960? now?   How many cars/household?  How big was the average house? How many miles of interstate...   and on and on.  

Even with all that, I'm glad I live now.
3's,
Rick
 

Of course the new EPA standards are starting to cut into Diesel fuel economy.  I bought my new crew cab pickup last year to avoid the new standards which require the addition of a DPF (diesel particulate filter) in addition to other changes.  The DPF is designed to catch all but the very smallest soot particles and it periodically "self cleans" by operating at a very high temperature to incinerate the soot particles.  Of course it reduces fuel economy due to increasing exhaust back pressure and the cleaning cycle involves either overfueling the engine or injecting fuel post combustion to increase the heat in the DPF.  Typically, the regen will occur once or more per full tank burned and the extra fuel used is a direct hit on fuel economy.

For something as aerodynamic as a brick, my pickup does OK; typically 18.6 in my mixed city/highway usage and usually around 20 mpg for straight highway runs at around 75 MPH.  My record so far is 23.7 hand calculated economy for a hamfest run upstate where I was limited to around 62 MPH on 2 lane rural roads.  I am sure a 2 wheel drive would do even better but living in a rural area with snow that was not a realistic choice.  However, the complexity of even this 2006 engine is much greater compared to the 2001 that I had; the new one has a closed PCV system, variable vane turbo, EGR, and an exhaust catalyst and a lot more plumbing under the hood to reduce emissions.  I don't mind working on my John Deere utility tractor but the pickup will definitely go to the dealer if it needs more than filter changes.

It will be interesting to see what Volkswagen comes up with on their new diesels for the U.S. market.  I will be looking for a new car shortly and I wouldn't mind picking up some MPG even if the overall cost of ownership is a wash.

Rodger WQ9E

Rodger:

You can still buy brand-new VW diesels. VW worked full speed to make as many as possible before midnight, 12/31/06 to beat the new emission requirements. Only last week I saw a new 06-1/2 4-door Jetta TDI at a sales promotion. Very nice, well appointed and much more room that I had expected.
Buying a new car is impossible right now, but it was fun kicking the tires.

My pickup is an '02 Ford 7.3, the end of the line for that engine. No catalytic, EGR or other junk hung on it. Just getting broke in now at 100K miles. Did some mild performance enhancements to it, 4" turbo-back exhaust, aftermarket intake and reprogramming.
The best highway mileage I've ever seen on it was ~23.0 driving across Wyoming with the cruise locked down at 65 MPH. At my more normal 75-80 MPH, mileage suffers, but the thing has all the aerodynamics of a brick. Overdrive would be a big help. The older 12V Dodges do even better than that, gear one up tall and they're seeing mid to upper-20s MPG.

I think as soon as practical, inexpensive, high power lithium-ion batteries are available, an electric car with an onboard generator (for long trips) would be the ultimate freedom from oil.    I think the GM Volt is something like it.    Charge the car up at night at home and have enough for most peoples commutes without using any gas, ethanol or diesel.    You see all the traffic jams, no one is moving but the engines are still burning up the fuel.  I wonder how much fuel is used in the U.S. while not moving.  The Tesla Motors car can go 200 miles on a charge.   It has no backup fuel burning engine.    If these types of cars become affordable, we can use our coal, uranium or whatever we use for electric generation to run our cars.    It's not free and there are other concerns, but it doesn't have to be based on oil.

lugging a battery around is a pita. Fuel cell is another on demand device that only uses fuel when you need power. Wait till you see your electric bill charging a 200 lb HO battery every night.

And besides we are going to take a 50% rate hike hit on our electric bills here as of july 1st. So wall socket rechargables arent the answer either. The bottom line is if you dont want to sit home all of the time, you gotta dig deep!! Bend over buckwheat, this one's gonna hurt!!
And unfortunately there aint much we can do about it.

                                              The Slab Bacon

Arm and a Leg

I've even seen them light of while cranking them over by hand adjusting the valves. You have to tie the fuel rack closed and close off the emergency shut off strangler choke if you are working on them. Been there, done that. But I still love them!! I still love the way a 12v sounds
"singing for its supper"!! The 92 series just didnt have the same sound.

                                                      The Slab bacon

That's all?  Due to Wisconsin having the 5th highest gas tax in the nation, I paid over $3.40/gal to fill my Chevy Prizm (aka rebadged Toyota Corolla) this last Tuesday.  And, that was with Regular.  As of yesterday it was $3.50/gal.  It doesn't even matter that it was for the reformulated junk.  My mom & dad, who live about 85 miles north of me in Manitowoc, gripe about gas prices all of the time.  Their gas isn't reformulated (yet), and they still pay just as much per gallon as I do.  Premium is pushing $4/gallon.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

Bill,

Thanks for the VW info, I though that the diesel VWs had temporarily disappeared; I will take a look to see what I can find next week.  My Olds Aurora does around 26 highway but it would be nice to gain since I use the car for commuting to work and I usually take the pickup on longer trips.

My pickup is a 2006 GMC with the 6.6 and the mileage for it is almost exactly the same as the 2001 6.6 I had previously.  I think the 6 speed auto in the 2006 with the 2'nd overdrive compensates for the mileage loss from the extra emission controls.  It is remaining stock at least until it gets out of warranty.  With the stock 360 HP/660 lb/ft of torque the only real change I would like to make is getting rid of the EGR system.  I am going to go to the deep pan for the Allison transmission with the next fluid change, the deep pan is actually the standard pan for Allison applications but the pickups get a slightly shallower pan for better off road clearance which is not of interest to me. The 7.3 you have is one to hang onto given its reliability and ease of repair, a lot of the local farmers have been less than thrilled with the 6.0 replacement.  I would imagine the requirement to remove the cab for anything but the most minor engine issues on the newer Ford pickups is going to be a real killer once it is out of warranty.

It will be interesting to see if a market develops for a higher mileage, lower power diesel pickup with the current cost of fuel.

73, Rodger WQ9E

Yeah, but is there any real conservation of energy when you're charging the batteries or elimination of pollution?  To me we're just moving the problem to another area.

while out in chicago, a friend there spoke of a sports car mfg who has a performance
car for 100k, using 6000 lithium laptop batteries that will do 0-60 in 3.9 seconds. has
a 250 mile range. about 60% of the car was bat cost. it can be done. I was impressed
someone pressed a commodity item laptop batt and did something like this with them.

Sounds like he's refering to the Tesla (http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php).

bingo that was it. I looked it up on the internet. pretty impressive.
I would expect the battery system used on a less powerful motor
could get some pretty good range.  (wonder what happens in
an accident gulp)

A family of four travelling from Washington, D.C., to Boston considered range of options — air, train, bus and car — but which one is best?  Despite higher prices at the pump, gasoline is still a bargain.  Gas would have to reach $15 a gallon before the public transport options would compete economically.

Note the report takes into account only the cost of the fuel.  Add the cost of wear and tear and maintenance of the car (divide the cost of the car by the expected miles it would travel in its lifetime for the $$/mile it costs to own the car), public transport might make out slightly better, but still the cheapest way to travel long distances is by car.

Commuting to work and back is a different story, when daily traffic jams and parking costs are considered.  When I lived in the Boston area, I left my car parked at home and took the MTA to work.

Also, if just one person is travelling by car, the present-day cost will be in the ballpark of public transport.  Interestingly, train travel is more expensive than flying, and Greyhound bus torture travel is almost as expensive as flying.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10451415

It all depends on how much your time is worth. A family of four could travel by train from Warshinton to Bawston round trip for just over $700. Driving costs for the average car round trip would cost around $250 for fuel and about $35 in tolls (It's been a few years since I've driven to Boston tolls may have increased.) Then add your time and frustrations of driving, and the ever annoying "Daddy, are we there yet?" "Daddy, I have to pee" "Daddy I'm hungry", and preventing the war of the siblings in the back seat. Drive your car and put up with the hassle or let someone else do the driving. Chances are the kids would be fully entertained on the train ride more so than being trapped in a small car. And least then when the kids have to pee you don't have to stop because there's privies and snack bars on the train. You can also take your own snacks as well as long as they are in a backpack or something that can be stored overhead. You'd also get there in about as much time as it takes to drive there! Since the Northeast Corridor is one of the fastest lines in the country, with speeds up to 135MPH if you include all the stops along the way it's still only about 9-1/2 hrs. one way. (It's about 8 hrs driving if you don't stop for breaks! Pay more and get on the Acella Express to Boston from Baltimore and they'll have you there in about half the time.


Fuel pricing based on a 15 Gal. tank, $3.50 per Gal. and 4 tanks of gas with an average of 25mpg. If you plan on taking your SUV then make that about $500 in fuel. Not including the qround town fuel while in Boston.

So, How much is your time worth?

I remember once, back in the 60's, travelling by Greyhound bus from Nashville to Boston.  It took two days, and by the time I got there I was stiff and exhausted.  Saddam's torture chambers couldn't have been much worse.

I did get a delightful break from the torture about 8 PM when an attractive young female passenger embarked from a small town bus station out in the middle of nowhere and took the vacant seat beside me.  We ended up having a heavy "make-out" session for about two hours, but unfortunately, she was only going to another little hole-in-the-wall town about 75 miles up the road, and disembarked before midnight.  I was in even more pain for the rest of the night.

This is the reply I got back from my Congressman Chris Carney regarding price gouging/fixing. Personally, it seemed to come off as a political ad campaign. Read for yourself.

This is sad. Our nation faces a serious problem that could compromise our economy & security & all we get is this kind of Bravo Sierra from our elected officials.

1) Alernative fuels are decades away from providing any kind of practical everyday alternative to the miracles of oil & gasoline. Most of us will be dead before they ever significantly replace oil as the world's economic life blood. The efficiency/technical/cost/distribution issues are daunting.

2) This so-called Anti-gouging legislation is pure Huey Long style populism designed to do nothing except placate the economically ignorant.

3) The enormous federal barriers to oil & gasoline production that this "representative" could actually work to remove are not even mentioned. 

Lord have mercy on us.

Terry

Terry said:
Spoken like a true "military man!"

He also said:
Amen, brother!

Bow your heads.

Kyrie eleison; Christe eleison; Kyrie eleison.

Amen

I didn't vote for those two oil crooks... who couldn't conduct a war if it was in their back yards.

Please avoid the politics. It causes toxic reactions.
Tnx!

Gas prices dropped over the weekend in this area.

Funny stuff on the oil crooks. Hypocritical too, since most of you probably have oil and/or oil related stocks in your pension fund(s), 401K(s), mutual fund(s), etc. Please give that money back, if you are to be taken seriously.

I would gladly give it back but my kids want the $5T back also.

$5T? Give it back. Always with the excuses. All talk, no action.

Now let's be serious.

If there was a business venture out there where
you could easily make money hand over fist, become the next billionaire and
live on easy street, there would be thousands of folks flocking to get into
that business. It's every businessman's dream.

Which begs the question: Why don't we see thousands of
new business men rushing into some part of the oil & gas business?

For example the refinery end of the business. The country is in desparate need of refinery capacity. This recent spike in gasoline prices is a direct result of the shortage in refinery capacity. Why aren't thousands of folks rushing out to build refineries & get rich in the process?

It happens in just about every other business (think computers, CD players, TV sets, etc.).
 
As the these new businesses enter the market, they come up with newer, better, faster, cheaper ways to do the job & cut there price so that they can get a bigger piece of the pie. That's competition (Adam Smith's "invisible hand"). That's why prices come down.

Why not oil & gas? 

The reasons are several.

1) Government restrictions. (EPA, state & local, etc.). These restrictions are costly,
cause delays, and in some cases preclude construction (e.g. no new U.S. refineries
since 1976 - see -  http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12227 & no nuclear plants on-line since 1996).

2) Government policy. The federal government is actively pushing & subsidizing(through legislation) ethanol even though it's an inefficient fuel. Why invest in a big oil refinery if your government is
actively pushing a policy that will put you out of business?

3) It's not that profitable. For example, Holly Corporation, a publicly traded refining company had Net Profit of only 5.5% of Revenue in 2005 and 6.6% of Revenue in 2006. You can do a whole lot better than that in most other industries. The average net profit % for the S&P 500 over the last 5 years is 10.29%.
 
So as in most instances of price catastophes (a la health care) the culprit is our
goverment. If they would open up the energy markets to new producers,
the prices would come down just as they do in all
other free & open markets.

We need to do this & soon.

With demand continuing to rise prices will soar without new product on the market.

Terry
W8EJO
 
 

Ummm Terry, don't you mean 1986 for the last nuke plants brought on-line?  I remember Three Mile Island.  We discussed this in my Nuclear Engineering classes in the 80s.  TMI occurred in 1979.  After that period, no new construction was initiated on nuke plants.  But the ones that construction were started on before Three Mile Island, were finished in the mid 80s.  No new plants have been built since then.  All they keep on doing is trying to extend the lifespan of the present nuke plants.  There has been talk of building a few new ones in the past couple of years or so, but everybody has a case of "not in my backyard" syndrome.  It's too bad.  I grew up about 17 miles south of 2 nuke plants (Kewaunee, and Point Beach) in Manitowoc, WI.  Both plants are only about a mile from each other, and are still in service.  Nobody really gets wound up about them.  They've been around since the late 60s & early 70s.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

The last reactor to come on line in the United States was the Watt’s Bar reactor in Tennessee, owned and operated by the Tennessee Valley Authority. It began commercial service in May 1996.

Terry
W8EJO

Terry said:

Its called cowtowing to the farmers. This gives them a reason to save farms and secure votes. I just heard on the new that the speaker of the house claims that greenhouse gases are high on the agenda. If that is so, then why are we going to pollute the air twice as bad by switching to ethanol? We use quite a bit of ethanol at work. All the tanks and pipes that are exposed to ethanol fumes are covered with a black soot substance. According to our environmental department, the EPA lists ethanol as a Volatile Organic Compound, (VOC). All holding tanks are to be induced with a nitrogen blanket of about 6" H2O. And we are only allowed very minimal venting to the atmosphere, (5 Lbs/month?). This doesn't sound like a very green fuel to me!

Hmmmm, I'll be. I didn't know that.  Thanks for the info. Terry.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

I don't agree.

Maybe in 1930, but there just aren't that many farmer votes these days, only an increasingly small number of votes are out there with all of the agribiz consolidation.

Instead, I think they're fumbling around trying to find feel-good 'solutions' to our energy needs for the city folks, of which there are a lot more votes to be found.

IMO, there just isn't a single, simple solution, no magic bullet and there ain't a single villian to blame. Our future energy needs are going to have to be supplied by a number of sources, from nuke to renewable stuff to coal conversion to liquid transportation fuel, using what makes sense.

New commerical aircraft will use nitrogen in the fuel tanks to keep O2 out.

The only cowtowing I see going on is to the guys bilking the public.....
nothing like a free market that you have full control of.

and no huz I checked no oil co stocks as far as I can see sorry om.

I don't agree.

Maybe in 1930, but there just aren't that many farmer votes these days, only an increasingly small number of votes are out there with all of the agribiz consolidation.
[/quote]

 Have you ever  noticed which state goes first in the pesidential primaries? It's only the Nations biggest corn producing state - Iowa.

The Iowa caucuses.

The Iowa caucuses won't be held until January of 2008 but the 2008 presindential hopefuls are already there - speechifying, promising, lying, money raising. . If you win Iowa, you have momentum, greater fund raising ability, more press coverage. It's an enormously important political state.

I went to a hamfest on Saturday. Lots of people were there with more vendors and buyers than last year.  Everybody must of had gas to get there and back home. No issues with gas here but what about postages rates. Try mailing a 30 pound package to Europe these days. Be prepared for counter shock.

Exactly Pete. All this P&Ming about gas prices but people are driving just as much as ever. It can't be very bad if behaviors aren't changing. Lots of hype and hot air with no substance. Lots of hypocrisy too. Funny stuff.

Iowa is an increasingly important political state, but there's very little difference in the positions between the candidates. You're right, it's all show-and-tell, but as far as defining a candidate's ideals, it's a joke. It's a beauty contest.

In '04, Gebhardt of Missouri, a neighboring farming state, was expected to handily win in Iowa for the reasons you cite, but he was trounced by Kerry, Edwards and even Howard Dean, none of which I'd consider to be Mr. GreenJeans. It's not the Iowa farmers controlling the politics in that state, it's the political activists.

The same goes for almost every caucus state...It's the party activists that show up to participate, not Joe Public.

Maybe 10 years ago I did participate in the Colorado caucuses. I experienced it first hand. And it was exactly that- Everyone that put forth platform proposals was way out of line with the moderate pragmatists at the center.

Bad for all of the political parties to have their ideologues controlling the process and that's how they defeat themselves.

It feels good to P&M like taking a healthy one.

Steve said:


Hmmmm, I don't know about others here on the board but since the big surge from Katrina, I have curtailed my usage considerably. I used to fill my tank every week but now I string it out for about 2 1/2 weeks. Things that I used to run into town, now are accumulated into one trip. P&M is the only satisfaction we get anymore. But I don't see the hypocrisy angle from my viewpoint. Its very hard to justify not being gouged by the oil companies when their annual reports of profits are (Exxon/Mobile) $240 billion! When oil was at $10, they were getting tax relief and subsidies. Now where is the return?

I was always under the assumption that the caucuses were based on geographical location not on the product the states which host them are common for.

But in any event, even if they are (or were at one point) placed in particular areas to win votes from the working class it's obvious now that the common man has nothing to do with them anymore. As many have stated it's all the political high rollers and activists that support these conventions while John Q. Public probably wishes he could get out of Dodge for a few days till the frenzy burns out.

P&Ming is far better than sricking your head in the sand and spreading the target.
the oil crooks only want to hear positive waves while they cry poverty.
Mike I do the same thing. every time we drive away from the house we make sure it is for a good reason. I also try to get a couple weeks out of a tank of gas but fill often to keep it topped off. XYL goes about 4 weeks on a tank with her car. I also keep a close eye on the MPG and try to drive like I have an egg under my gas foot. I hang about 19 mpg in my 5.3 chevy truck. goes down a bit when I run AC.
89 craptane gives me the best miles per buck.

"Its very hard to justify not being gouged by the oil companies when their annual reports of profits are (Exxon/Mobile) $240 billion!"

Since when is making a profit the same as being gouged? The annual profits were $240 billion, but on what volume of sales? Spouting numbers like these is meaningless.

The same goes for providing anectdotal reports of one's own behavior. If the over all demand for oil does not decrease, then behavior of the population in general is not changing. Further, describing how you drive or how often you fill up the gas tank hardly describes how much you've changed your behavior with respect to oil usage. How much electricity do you comsume? How many products do you buy that are shipped by truck or train, how many plastic items are in your homes, etc? If you haven't significantly changed your usage/behavior in these areas, your demand on the oil supply has changed very little.

Thus, my declaration of hypocrisy. And I still find all the hype and bluster quite funny. :D

240 Billion?
I don't think so. Exxon/Mobil reported an 8.4 billion dollar profit for fiscal Q1.
Read on:

http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/27/news/companies/exxon/index.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/earnings/2006-01-30-exxonmobil_x.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/30/business/30cnd-exxon.html?ex=1296277200&en=8cc83a774025962b&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

OK all you power wasters time to fire up the cake pan and Steve will stop laughing and strap all of us.

I'm goin' home
And when I wanna go home
I'm goin' mobile
Well, I'm gonna find a home
And we'll see how it feels
Goin' mobile
Keep me movin'

I can pull up by the curb
I can make it on the road
Goin' mobile
I can stop in any street
And talk with people that we meet
Goin' mobile
Keep me movin'

Out in the woods
Or in the city
It's all the same to me
When I'm drivin' free, the world's my home
When I'm mobile

Hee, hoo!
beep beep!

Play the tape machine
Make the toast and tea
When I'm mobile
Well I can lay in bed
With only highway ahead
When I'm mobile
Keep me movin'

Keep me movin'
Over 50
Keep me groovin'
Just a hippie gypsy

Come on move now
Movin'
Keep me movin', yeah

Keep me movin', groovin', groovin', yeah
Movin', Yeah
Mobile, mobile, mobile, mobile, ...

I don't care about pollution
I'm an air-conditioned gypsy
That's my solution
Watch the police and the tax man miss me
I'm mobile
Oooooh, yeah, hee!

Mobile, mobile, mobile yeah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70AAQVHctQ8

Sure thing Mr Townshend! ;)

Ellen - AF9J

Who ?

Of course.

Ellen - AF9J

Not only has he written some of the greatest rock music ever, he also knows how to pronounce "mobile".  Whatta guy.

Ah, yes!! boy aint that the truth!! I miss the days when you could cruise the interstates at 120+. Those were the days. 35 years ago, I actually raced a state trooper. The stakes were: He won, I would sit there until he got writers cramp, I won I walked free and clear. I won and he couldnt believe it. I outran his 427 chebby cruiser with my 413 out on I-95 just above baltimore!! We became friends after that, and every time he saw me coming home from work at 11:30pm, he would pull me ova so we could go for coffee and dognutz!! Those were the days!!

I know someone who still drives like that, and he'd one of us!! K1KV.
they still call him "3 digit Bill" He drove down for the timmonium fester, hung out all day at my party, and drove back the same day. He swore that he would make it home in less than 4 hours!!

                                                The Slab bacon

Too much to lose these days and my insurance man is my first grade buddy and he knows how well I can spank second gear.
He prefers I keep the old firebird parked.
413 beating a rat now that sounds like a good match.

Thatz why '70 dodge just sits in my driveway deteriorating. (the one that is the background for the group shot pictures) I would start to wind it up through the gearz (4 speed) and "this feeling" would start to come over me and it wuz flat to the floor and pullin gearz!! So I figgered the best way to stay out of trouble is to keep it somewhat inoperable.

With Zoning doing another one of their "neighborhood sweeps" and getting  citation for it last week, I went out and put the tags on it and pumped up the flat tires. It actually lookz pretty good sitting there now.
I might just have to replace the leaking pump diafrizm and leaking float bowl gasketz and blow the cobwebz out of it. Itz still a fun car to drive, thatz why I dont!! (I'm paying around $1100 a year for insurance on 3 cars and a motorcycle)

                                        The Slab Bacon

Yup,
Mine is in the same condition with a friggen wood chuck living under it.
The high power pellet rifle has a date with him. I bought some plants for the garden over the weekend and sure enough he was sitting under the rear bumper waiting for me to plant them Monday. I move the part of the garden he likes to eat.
I have about 30K on the drive train and stopped when my Son was born. Last time I drove it was a ride to Tom Vu's on a nice cold night.
Town cops bugged me once but I told them to run the plate. I keep a sticker on it. I bet the holley also needs a rebuild and some marvel mystery oil down the holes before it gets fired again.
I need to move it to get a bead on my little pal.
Too many toys not enough time at this point. I would love to take it for a ride......

Hmmm, Deep Purple off of the "Machine Head' album - cool.

Ellen - AF9J

my favorite in LA was pink floyd amimals .....you have to know the 405 freeway.

there is just something about pullin second when itz all crossed up and sideways thet still makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck!!

Real men dont let out of it, they just steer it out!!

Mine only haz 46k original on the whole car, and I'm the second owner!! I've had it since it was a little ova a year old! When you've had something that long, itz kinda hard to get rid of it!!

I occasionally run into people that I went to high school with, the first thing they usually ask me is: What ever happened to the orange Dodge? They usually almost szht when I tell them I still have it!!
36 years is a long time to keep a car, I guess itz just a sickness!!
yuo know, kinda like ham radio  ;D ;D

                                                  The Slab Bacon

I bought mine in LA drove it home and planted the motor from the fusted out '74 in it removing the little 305 put put.
I wish I still had the '74 but the body was shot and my sister did a few good dents. She was in high school at the time and I let her drive it or should I say beat it. A cop friend pulled over all the time busting her about exhaust noise.
I really wish I hung on to the '65 Tempest with built 389. I could get the front wheels a couple feet in the air going into second.
Let off no way unless you are facing something hard.
Then if you can't burn a straight line you are a goat roper.
I helped a buddy build an L88 with ZL1 cam and 4:88s. You could fourth gear off the ground.  high 10s in the quarter with 11 inch racemasters.

468CID (440+.060) +12.5/1CR + 312/567/106 cam + thoroughly tweaked six pack intake and carbs + some headwork + 2 1/8" x 42" fenderwell headers +4.88s +11.5 x 28" M&H 330s + ceramic button clutch + my arm on the shifta = 10.80s @ 122mph. Carrying the front wheels all the way through first with a 3800lb car. That was just way too koool!! Something that you cant appreciate until you've been there!!

I sold that drivetrain 20+ years ago and returned it to a slightly warmed over stock 440 sixpack. Was still a 13 sec car last time run around 18 years ago! My daily driver back then wuz a '66 ford 6' stepside puke up with another '70 Mopar 440 in the boiler room.It wuz also a good solid 13 second appliance with automatic and A/C! I'm now driving a 4 banger ford ranger. (Whatz wrong with this picture!!)

Life wuz good back then!!

                                          The Slab Bacon

Hey dudes and dudettes! Long time no post from me...


All you fart smellers and nobody mentioned hydrogen??

A safe, working system that can be easily retrofitted to any gas burning vehicle

Read this....

http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/ (http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/)

Now that is one cool retrofit!

But they're not being upfront about the reality of making hydrogen with solar panels...
Too much hype there.
1 HP=746 watts. So to make 10 HP/hr on a road trip would require (without losses!) ~7-1/2 KW/hr upfront. That's simply not realistic unless you had a backyard full of $50,000 worth of solar panels in Arizona.

Hey Frank,
you gotta have shit to talk about when you get old. I know people who sat on their asses their whole life and just sit there with nothing to say.
In Ct. yesterday this kid got busted for a film case full of black powder with a fuse hanging out of it. The news reported it like they were going to lock him up in Cubia.
 My Friggen OM blew milk tins down Babcock Street on to Capital Ave in Hartford as a kid. He also built gliders all winter long so he could blow them up on the fourth of July.
Poor kids today get a mouse to push around a foam pad. No wonder they can't sit still in class. And they are stuck driving 4 bangers with baby fart mufflers. My son will be 16 in 5 years maybe we should start working on the Firebird.......I taught him how to operate a torque wrench when we fixed Mom's car. He cleaned all the gasket surfaces for me. He is a great go-fer.......now Pete this is how you spank second gear......And take the t handle off when you have a date and run the ball.....and you can't get LaXD in the back seat of a firebird.

Bill,
That sounds stupid enough for Washington to jump on......please keep it to yourself.
All I can picture is that beaker full of hydrogen in Chem class getting lit.
Imagine the weight of a hydrogen tank safe to drive down the road?
Reminds me of the argon jug in the old sidewinder at about 5000 psi

Aint it a shame, we're all starting to geeze! it sucks, but there is nothing we can do about it!! Believe I have lotz of crazy memories from MY past!! Itz wierd, but now as I'm starting to geeze, I have many vivid dreams at night of the good days gone by. Everything from cars to racing, people ,even some of the women from the past. I guess life was just more fun back then when you didnt care about anything. It sure is way too complicated now!!

My wife used to think I was full of B.S. with many of the stories that I told. Then she met many of the other people that were also involved as well. And they are still talking about it theirselves. She now doesnt think I'm crazy, she knows I'm crazy!!

I refuse to grow old gracefully!! I will never lay down in the ring!! I will, till my last dying breath always go down swinging!! I still ride a Sportster. I still drive a clutch. And I can still pull a mean second gear with a Chrysler new process (hemi) 4 speed! (When the poor arthritic joints dont hurt too bad ;D ) And I'm still ornery as catszht! It is proly a good thing that I just dont have much time on my hands or I would prolly kill myself doin some of the crazy szht I used to do!!

Life without any fun or enjoyment is surely not worth living!!

                                                  The Slab Bacon

Safer than your present gas-olean tank.

(http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/image002.jpg)

Why is this man smiling?

If you do a little reading on their site you'll see that these are not just tanks filled with hydrogen. They are filled with a chemical (hydride) that absorbs the hydrogen that can only be released when heated...

Quote;

"Even opening the tank, or cutting it in half will not release the Hydrogen gas. In addition, you could even fire incendiary bullets through the tank and the Hydride would only smolder like a cigarette. It is in fact, a safer storage system than your Gasoline tank is."

The problem with this system is the cost, between $7k - $10k. Locally, gas is now around $3.15 a gallon. I'm spending aprox $70 a week on gas, that's $3640 per year. At this rate, it would take between two to three years for the system to pay for itself, plus the cost of electricity to power the hydrogen generator. However.......... I had dinner a few weeks ago with someone who lives in Germany. He told me that gas there is $6.75 a gallon! ??? Will it reach that price here in the states? If it does, the hydrogen system becomes a more attractive alternative.  ;)

One other observation, Glenn...
If this catches on, governments are going to figure out how to tax these alternative motor fuels, be it homemade hydrogen or biodiesel (in my case).
Or maybe they won't (heh!).

Good point Bill.... ... some of my co-workers were discussing this, we figured there would eventually be hydrogen filling stations, much like BBQ propane tank refill - exchange stations we have now. Yup, cha-ching! $$$ tax money. Can't get away from that I suppose.. :P

Unfortunately, the Consumer protection clowns are not allowing this company to proceed, not because the system is unsafe,.... they are trying to stop the sale of various chemicals to the general public........

I don't suppose the oil companies indirectly have something to do with putting the brakes on this technology, ya think? ::)

 

I'd like to see those crappy little tanks take you 400 miles down the road making enough hydrogen to go 60 mph.

The reason for the price differential between U.S. gas prices & European gas prices is government taxation, not the undelying cost of the fuel itself.

In the US you pay between 26 cents (GA) & 50.4 cents (WI) for fuel excise taxes + sales tax which are all included (although hidden by rotten, sneaky,slimy politicos) in your cost per gallon. (see: http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp)

In many other countries, fuel taxes run insanely higher.

In Germany it's over $4.00/gallon. The Netherlands $4.46/gallon. France "only" $3.77/gallon. (see: http://www.urban.org/publications/1000845.html)

As an aside, the biggest profiteer off your fuel purcahses is not "big oil" or little oil or medium sized oil, it's your "freindly" state & fed govt (as in: We're from the government & we're here to help you. Now bend over.").


Terry
W8EJO

and who builds the roads?

Well, if they really wanted to score points with us voters, they could suspend taxation over the summer driving season... that'll never happen, as they need to finance Iraq and AssGasketStan...

I could balance THAT budget, I'm sure a nuke for each "country" would be cheaper than what is being spent now...

The oil there is underground, I feel confidant the ground would shield it from the radiation...

Ah Geez Terry!  You HAD to remind me that I live in the state that has one the highest gas taxes in the nation! :'(

Feeling bummed in Cheeseheadland,
Ellen - AF9J

True, but I'm starting to wonder what they are doing with our fuel tax moolah. Our roads around here in baltimore are so bad that they are sickening!! Back country farm roads in southern Pa. are by far smoother than our roads around here!!

Maryland, Minnesota, New York, Wisconsin, and several other states, have so called minimum gas price laws  which require gasoline retailers to set a minimum price for gasoline.

Maryland also has a law which  prohibits companies that refine gas from operating stations.

These laws were not enacted to promote competition and keep prices down (they are all in fact anti-competitive, anti-consumer, forms of economic statism) but rather to prop up prices for independent gas retailers which has big lobbying organizations which provide campaign donations to state politicians. The WMDA Service Station & Automotive Repair Association, the Gasoline Retailers Association and the Petroleum Marketers Association of America are  the lobbying groups who have pressured your state lawmaker to pass these laws.

I repeat: "We are here fom the government and we are here to help you. Now bend over".

Terry
W8EJO

This I might add while the state delagations to congress from each of these states voted heavily in favor of the so called "Price Gouging" bill (HR 1252) before the House on 5/23/07.

The votes by state were: Maryland 7 yes 1 no, Minnesota 5 yes 3 no, New York 23 yes 3 no, & Wisconsin 6 yes 2 no.
(see: http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/110/house/1/votes/404/)

The balatant hypocrisy of these "represenatives" is truly breathtaking.



Terry
W8EJO

Just remember that when they come up for re election!!


                                                                                       The Slab Bacon