The AM Forum

Good thing that you are sensitive to your body, Mr Mike
Some folks would shrug off an incident like that and go on their merry way....
It's just moderation,,,that's all...

Wow, you definitely made the right choice!  I don't know if I would have made the same choice or not  :P  That was very good thinking on your part !!!!

Thanks’ for reminding us of the importance of taking care of our body!
I wish you all the best of luck in your new second life…

Hi Mike,

Have you been Taking an Aspirin a day or anything..? helps thin things out.


73
Jack
KA3ZLR

Glad you made it in time Mike!
For many of us, including myself, that is a very timely post.

Over the last few years I've been very activity working on my own health, we're all starting to get to that age where these issues become a real concern.
Our western diet is horrible from a health standard, but that is what society wants to eat, so that is what business caters to.
I'm terribly guilty of eating from convenience rather than from health.

Let me share something which I am very much considering, have you read or seen the movie "Forks Over Knives"?
http://forksoverknives.com
I just sent a copy to my folks.

It's largely based on a lifestyle change from one of the very well respected docs from the Cleveland Clinic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYTf0z_zVs0

A very different kind of lifestyle choice, certainly not what most of us are used to, but may very well be the next big thing.
Western medicine, while really doing miracles, is reactive, not proactive, we need to switch to a wellness model.
I'm in the process of crafting a wellness plan for our staff at work on just this concept.

I wish you well, and hope, given the time off from the biz, see you at HossTraders.

MrMike,

First I am glad you doing fine and second thanks for sharing your experience with all of us on AMfone.  By doing so, you may have saved someone who will encounter a similar condition. 

Your very smart in doing what you did.  Its probably a small percentage of people that would chalk it up as a "fluke".  Personally, I don't believe it flukes and everything that happens to us has a cause behind it.  You investigated the cause and as the result of your keenness, will  be around to tell the story! 

Martha and I try to eat healthy, but every now and then we treat ourselves.  One thing that I am getting troubled over is when we go out to eat, the horrible choices on the menu.  Eating at home where you can prepare food properly is ultimately much healthier.  In a few years we want to do another cross county road trip and the part I am looking forward to the least is eating out for 4 or so weeks. 

Glad your doing well.  Keep us posted... 

73,
Joe, W3GMS     

Thinking that if you have low cholestrol your good to go is a trap. 4/5 yrs back I experienced similar thing while at work. The pain passed in about 20 minutes but I was close to the point of telling employers to call 911.The pain down the left arm was the tell tail sign.
       Doctor and cardiololgists visits showed nothing abnormal on tests.Sure showed up on stress test.2 arteries 50% blocked, one 90 %.The highest my cholestrol ever was was 206, 186 at the time of incident,now in 140s with medicine.
        Had stent done, it blocked again 2 yrs later, larger longer one put in.Me and Plavix for the duration.If there is a family history of heart problems ( had 2 grandfathers pass early ,from that, one at 40 ) be aware. I am sure the 45 yrs I smoked had nothing to do with this( sarcasm)  Our good health is our most valuble possession, just like Granma said !    WA2FNS

Hey Mike glad you acted on the symptom and especially glad you avoided surgery and will be with us longer.
As you know I had a similar experience three years ago but I had no symptoms! I just was lucky enough to have it noticed at my annual physical from my EKG. Well I wound up with the cathertization which was quickly followed by a quad bypass. I am glad you didn't have your chest ripped open as I have chest nerve discomfort from the surgey still today. Just the thought that they had my heart offline and me running on a machine for awhile was scary.
Anyway I can vouch for the cardiac rehab programs as very good programs. I continued working out and eating correctly after my episode and have lost 80lbs and last year I ran a 5 mile road race and finished! So work hard and don't be depressed by it. You'll be better than before.
We can swap hospital stories at Nearfest.
Regards
Q
PS
I say I had no symptoms but in hindsight I did. I was out of breath with minimul exertion. No pain at all
however. Also my cholesterol  before the bypass was around 180. Now it is 130 and my LDL is only 60

Mike (and others),
                         Sometimes we need things like this to slap us in the face and tell us we are not doing something right. As everyone here knows, I had a very rude awakening a year ago on December 18th, and then again the first week in February of this year. I have died twice and been lucky enough to come back. (ornery as ever) When you have a major / life threatening health issue, dont take it lightly, it is an indication that you need a major life style change! ! !

Having both diabetes and liver cirrhosis has required a pretty massive overhaul of my diet and other activities. It has not been easy, but myself and my doctor are seeing major improvements. (Believe me, I wouldn't hesitate to commit mass murder for a hot fudge sunday and / or a good piece of fried chicken fried in bacon fat! ! !)
But if you want to stick around, you gotta do what you gotta do! !

As we get older these problems become VERY apparent and slap us in the face hard!
all I can add is to see your primary care doctor and have a full checkup often. Especially as many of us are in the 50+ category. We are like an old car that has 150,000 miles on it and has been run hard the whole time. Something is gonna break down! Not when but IS is the key word here. Get checked out often and prevent it BEFORE it happens. Pay heed and listen to your doctor's advice before you end up like me! !

Take care of yourselves and stay well! ! ! ! ! !

 GLAD YOU DODGED THE BULLET I AM WATCHING MY DIET NO MORE THAN EVER.      HIGH  CHOLESTROL  IS NO JOKE

Had I not moved from the Chicago area and that Chicago diet some 30 years ago, I would have been expired by now.

While I do grill steaks and burgers on the weekends, I am convinced that a regular diet of supermarket red meat is really, really bad for you.

I gave up smoking 10 years ago.  I loved to smoke.  Quitting was tough; the first month was the worst.  Around 6 years ago I got one of those full body CT scans, mainly concerned with any possible tumors in my lungs developing.   Well, that was clean but they found plaque buildup in one of my arteries, the one they call the "widow maker."  I did the treadmill stress test with a cardiologist, and was given a pass, but he told me to start aerobic exercise.  My GP doc put me on a dramatically different diet.  I had been the saturated fat king.  Funny you should mention the "Chicago Diet" Bill!  Ben and Jerry's, Brown Cow yogurt, the kind made with whole milk with the cream on top, brats, steak and cheese sandwiches, steaks and potatoes, deep dish pizza, double cheese burgers, onion rings, bacon, sausage, eggs and steak, whole milk, low fat no fat what is that?  Meat balls, Polish Sausage....I'd bring frozen beef and mac dishes to work and dump cheddar cheese on them and melt it all in a microwave.  I once tried spam with cheddar cheese melted over it.    (That was a bit much, even for me.)

That all suddenly went out the window.  Hello, salads, skim milk, fruit, nuts, whole grain breads, soy "ice cream," protien shakes, fiber and no saturated fat.   It stank...for about a month.  Then it turned out to be pretty good.  I kept telling myself, "This isn't bad, just different. And I'll get used to it."  And I did.   Most diets fail because the person gives up for lack of ideas on using the new ingredients, and not giving the change enough time to work.  You don't change anything with your body overnight.  I started feeling better; have more energy and that afternoon slump vanished.

I've backslid a bit since then.  I have an occasional hot dog (there are a lot of good trash food places around here--it ain't Boulder Colo.) or ice cream.   I also am not good about exercise.  I climb stairs, and do a lot of walking.  I'll get a workout at the hamfest tomorrow! 

I don't mind making all this public if it gets a ham to take his diet seriously.

Glad you had a wakeup call Mike and noticed it.

<snip> "  Funny you should mention the "Chicago Diet" Bill!  Ben and Jerry's, Brown Cow yogurt, the kind made with whole milk with the cream on top, brats, steak and cheese sandwiches, steaks and potatoes, deep dish pizza, double cheese burgers, onion rings, bacon, sausage, eggs and steak, whole milk, low fat no fat what is that?  Meat balls, Polish Sausage....I'd bring frozen beef and mac dishes to work and dump cheddar cheese on them and melt it all in a microwave."  <snip>

Rob, ROB,
              You're killin me! ! ! (literally)  :'(  :'(

At the Last Port Flush,and Blood test my Cholesterol level was at 128.
I'm 54 now on an Aspirin a day no other drugs as per the Oncologist.

Thank the Lord.

73
Jack
KA3ZLR

"I once tried spam with cheddar cheese melted over it"

Try it with Provolone.

klc

DANG! Guess that means you can't eat those pork fat laden sawsages at NearFester.  Seriously, glad you caught it in time

Al

ME TOOOO.........that was deeelishus

Angelina's is getting to be a rip off anyway.

A friend of mine who is also a medical doctor had a close call about a year ago.  The clinic where he worked just got in a new scanner for detecting plaque build-up, and he volunteered to be the first guinea pig to test out the new machine. The results came back, indicated that more than one major coronary artery was 90% blocked.  He ended up having open-heart surgery, and was told that if his condition hadn't been discovered when it was, he probably wouldn't have survived another year. He is in his mid 60s.  He says he never had any symptoms and heart problems were the last thing on his mind, although I think he did mention some family history.

I recall a few years ago, they were widely advertising some kind of non-invasive scan with little or no ionising radiation, called the "life test".  I think my wife had it through her work and checked out OK. Haven't heard much about it recently, and tried a web search, and all I could find was industrial testing to determine the expected life of a manufactured product.  Don't know if it didn't turn out to be what it was cracked up to be, or if I got the name wrong.

Well, I'm glad you got through it okayfine, old friend. We're been through too many hamfests and swapped or been part of too many war stories over the decades to have you leave just yet. I still tell folks about the day we went to get your FREE T-368 and how I skipped outta work early because radio is so much more fun than computer stuff. Things like that are what make life amusing. BRRRRR.

I wouldn't sweat the greasy sandwich now and then unless the doc says 'none'. Moderation is the key and your own particular chemical makeup is what makes the difference. Common sense is as or more important than diet. How many times have you heard some gi-normous person tell you that they were on such-n-such diet, then the next time you see them, they're even bigger? It's more about choices than anything. Doesn't matter what the doc says if you don't listen.

As we were saying t'udder day, exercise helps a lot. Go out to your garage, get a long pipe, thread it through the handles of a couple R-390s and do a few reps like we discussed. Or strap a GRR-5 onto your back and go jogging. You'll be a new man.  ;)  But seriously - once the docs spend a bit more time figuring out what's what for diet purposes and what makes you tick inside, you'll have a good roadmap to follow for better health. In the end it'll come down to personal responsibility and common sense, both of which you seem well-equipped with.

Yes, there'll be no talking about cataract operations, liver spots, or new dentures at NEAR-Fest. There'll be plenty of time for that someday when we're old buzzards. Besides, your ticker has your undivided attention now.

Hi


Poor mans Steak Fried Jumbo with Provolone cheese.


73
Jack
KA3ZLR

Last year I bought a bag of rolls from Angelina's and we feasted on pickled eggplant.
Good thing you got fixed up Mike now get off that golf cart and walk.

My smartest friend from grammer school is a heart guy in Hartford Hospital
I'm told he is verrrrry good. Jim Gallager.

Mr Mike, glad you beat the grim reaper! 

Not so sure the issue might be saturated fat, per se; rather, the processed foods laden with salt, MSG, and artifical hydrogenated fats that seem to be the worst.

Here in Greece pork, lamb, 20% fat yogurt, whole milk, and any variety of natural (as opposed to Kraft crap) cheese are staples.  But the bread is ALWAYS fresh (and doesn't last but a day before mold starts growing on it), the 'maters taste like 'maters instead of oranges, and olive oil is the ubiquitous cooking oil.   You can't even buy margarine - but they don't generally put butter on their bread either.  And every meal is enjoyed with wine or beer.  Heart attack rates here are very low, despite widespread smoking, incredible consumption of coffee laden with cream and sugar, and plenty of overweight people.

People do walk a lot more here.  Any evening the neighborhood is full of couples walking, kids playing and running in the park, etc.  And they generally buy only a day or two's food at a time instead of stocking up on frozen/manufactured stuff.  Finally each neighborhood has a weekly farmers market where you stock up on your fruits 'n' veggies.

I'm not a doctor nor do I play one on TV but the quality of food, in moderation, combined with light but regular exercise, seems to do the trick here.

 

Last thing I want to do is lecture but hope someone drove you to the hospital.  If not, you took a serious risk. 

My youngest brother was in the same situation a few years ago at age 42. Decided to drive himself to the ER which was 3 or so miles away from his residence and ambulance only a mile away. At the start of his drive he was able to move freely. Things got worse quickly as he approached the ER. He decide to drive through red lights as the pain and numbness were getting worse.  Upon arrival, he couldn't get out of the car so he laid on his horn until someone came out.  He was carried into the ER on a stretcher.  My brother should've called the EMTs.  They'd have means to control an arrest. He may not have made it or could've injured someone else on the way.

Aside from that I'm glad you're OK and wish you good health from this day forward.

The diet may be more healthy, but in order to survive in the city you have to watch out for the crazy drivers, if they are anything like they were once when I was in Athens in the mid 60s, and missed being run down by a truck by a fraction of an inch.  I was crossing a street, and thought I had plenty of time to make it, but he was coming much faster than I thought.  I know he saw me, but instead of slowing down, he just sat on his horn and kept on coming full speed ahead.

Back then, the Acropolis was freely open to the public. I spent a whole day crawling all over it (climb at your own risk!). The next time I was there, they had it almost entirely fenced off, and visitors could enter only a few selected spots. I was told that the tourists constantly climbing all over it were eroding away the stones, so they decided to limit access.

Have you cultivated a taste for Retsina?

Amen.

Glad you spotted your problem before it did any serious damage, Mike.  With these new changes, you may have extended your life many years.

About MSG and the other additives you mentioned above - I wud love to kick in the GD BA's  the execs who decide to put (poison) MSG and these other useless "taste good" ingredients into our foods. I avoid MSG like the plague. It is in MANY foods - just check the labels. When I eat it by error, I get a killer headache that can last 8-10 hours.  It's in Campbell's soups, Nacochips, CheeseNips, pork and beans, most bacons, TacoBell food, Macdonalds chicken and other products... on and on. Read the labels and see.  Chinese resturants....  I once axed the owner if he used MSG. He said EVERYONE does whether they admit it or not - else they could not compete with flavor. It a challenge to find food without it.

Many people have bad reactions to MSG. There was a time when I thought about a national class action suit against the major food companies who use MSG. They are criminals in my mind.  Why doesn't the FDA respond to this? How will this practice look 50 years from now, like smoking?

Then there's "meat extenders" used in most store meats as a preservative and "hydrolyzed"  soybean additives. Watch out for these too. Carragean? is used in many foods and produces gas. Watch for it in dog food. Poor Yaz had problems until I stopped buying food with that additive.

Over the years I've watched what I eat and rarely get a headache or reaction these days - until I get careless when eating out. You cannot tell what the chef has used, really.  

Heck, what's wrong with eating "blander" food with no added junk in it?  We get used to it quickly.  As Johnny said, the bread in Greece grows mold after a day. The USA quest to preserve longer and make food taste "good" is shortening the average American's life. Most don't realize this until they have problems...  sigh.

T

Glad to hear you are doing well. The changes you are making will be for the better, even if you didn't have your recent scare. Stick with it.

Blood cholesterol levels are but one factor to consider for your arterial and heart health. Have blood tests done to look at others.

C-reactive protein (bad if it's high)
Insulin (bad if it's high)
Estrogen (bad if it's high)
Triglycerides (bad if it's high)
Fibrinogen (bad if it's high)
Homocysteine (bad if it's high)
Glucose (bad if it's high)
LDL (bad if it's high)
Oxidized LDL (bad if it's high)
Blood pressure (bad if it's high)

HDL (bad if it's low)
EPA/DHA (bad if it's low)
Nitric Oxide (bad if it's low)
Vitamin D (bad if it's low)
Free Testosterone (bad if it's low)
Vitamin K (bad if it's low)

Yecchh.

But my dad liked it.

It's the Ouzo over there that makes them crazy Greeks.

Steve, my doc checks all of those items annually. His specialty is Endocrinology and you got to be one sharp cookie to interpret and treat any imbalances. He put me on a Statin to fix my LDL and he recommends everyone over 60 to get a "48-slice" virtual coronary examination.

Tom, a Mediterranean-Style diet doesn't have to be bland.  I'll bet JN comes back with a new set of food likes. I'll make you a killer Eggplant Moussaka some time, all I need is some fresh Moose. ;)

Here pedestrians do not legally have the right of way.  However, Athens traffic is extremely sane compared with any number of places I've been.  Manila and Taipei rank among the worst; Manila was literally like a video game.  Nairobi was bad because of the crummy French cars that always died in the middle of the road as well as the extraordinarily poor roads (it was often smoother to drive in the ditch than on the road).  And then there's the wildlife hazards - giraffes, zebras, etc.  You think deer are bad?  See what hitting a giraffe does to a big bus.

Moscow is bad because of the congestion and number of relatively new and inexperienced drivers... I honestly think Moscow is the most dangerous place I've been, driving wise.

No, I don't think I'll ever develop a taste for retsina.  Nor kamakia ice cream (tree sap flavored)...  everything else is FBOM!

Science is bucking the Drug Companies. Guess who your Cardiologist listens to?

Stephanie Senneff
Senior Research Scientist at MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology)
 
"low serum cholesterol is associated with increased frailty, accelerated mental decline, and early death. (Ref 1.)
Statins are not the answer for anyone seeking to avoid cardiovascular disease. The answer, instead, is to modify the diet to include foods that are rich in cholesterol and saturated fat, to avoid empty carbohydrates, especially high fructose corn syrup, to eat foods that are good sources of sulfur, and, most especially, to spend plenty of time outdoors in the sun."

http://www.spacedoc.com/why_statins_do_more_harm_than_good

So what if she is right?

Jim
WD5JKO

The statement is incomplete or over-simplified. You want your LDL to be low and the HDL to be high (relatively speaking). The most prevalent risk factor is low HDL, along with small LDL particles, which commonly occur together. In fact, of every 100 people with coronary heart disease, 60-70 will have low HDL and small LDL particles, but fewer than 30 will have high LDL.

The problems with long-term use of statins have been known for a long time. Dr. Langsjoen produced a study in 1990 showing that statins inhibit the natural biosynthesis of coenzyme Q10 in the liver. Low CoQ 10 eventually weakens the heart. So, if you are going to take statins, you really should consider taking CoQ 10. If your doc doesn't know about any of this, it might be time to find another doc.

Another thing that's in everything that you have to watch is sugar.

Yes, absolutely! Also realize that most foods labeled "Fat Free", or "Low Fat" are full of sugar!!

Back to Cholesterol, Be careful when the docs say your LDL is too high. Why? Because it is almost always calculated based upon the other values. Here is the formula:

LDL = Total - HDL - Triglycerides/5


If you don't believe this, pull out your own lipid numbers from the labtest, and plug them in. So what is the big deal with this? Well LDL is expensive to measure, and is easy to calculate SO LONG as you have a Trigliceride value around 200. If you go on a low carb diet, the Triglericides drop in half usually within 3 months, and the CALCULATED LDL value shoots up. So the Dr. ignorant of this fact says you need to be on a statin, and that low carb does not work. The Docs stick stubbornly to the restricted calorie and low fat diet.


When I turned 50, my doc says you better see a cardiologist to get your ticker checked out. So I do the stress test, radioactive die, ultrasound in the legs, and the optional MRI to look for any built up plaque. I pass everything, doc says I'm in the top 10 percentile for a 50 year old male. No evidence whatsoever of any CVD, zero plaque, etc. Pretty good hugh? Then he says my cholesterol is high, and I need to take statin pills. Wait a minute, no evidence of CVD after 50 years, and now I need to take pills? So I did take the pills, and I was one of about 10-15% that get rhabdomyolysis (acute muscle pain, usually in hip/thigh). After 5 months I can hardly walk. Four years after getting off the drug, I still have muscle problems in my leg/hip. I proved repeatedly since that a low carb diet high in Omega 3, and ALA along with vitamins C, E, D, B-Complex, Mag/Cal, Coenzyme Q10 can give me doctor pleasing blood lipid levels (total 180, HDL 76, LDL 99 Trig 55). Doctor says I'm full of it, and I should be on a statin. I suspect my LDL is a lot lower than 99 due to the math error since my Trig value is only 55.

Jim
JKO

Genes trump life style.

I know a guy who having watched his dad die young led a very careful life,  exercised a great deal, was never overweight, never smoked, ate a very careful diet, had great blood numbers, normal blood pressure, regular check-ups, aspirin a day, preventative cholesterol meds, was in peak fitness having recently cycled the coast of Oregon with his ham buddy Jeff, K6JCA.

This guy had a heart attack just about a year ago when out doing what was for him an easy easy bicycle ride.

He'd just had a physical & EKG too.

He got the whole thing, ambulance ride, ER, and a stent to open the 100% blocked LAD (left anterior descending) and a drug regimen.

Moral:  If you're at risk, don't settle for an EKG, get a scan of some sort, at least an echo cardiogram.  If your insurance won't pay for it, save up and pay for it yourself.

Moral 2: If you're determined to have a heart attack, be an endurance athlete.  Your heart doesn't grow any arteries but if you exercise like a lunatic it grows capillaries like crazy so the other arteries plus these capillaries pitch in if something important like the LAD stops up.  This will greatly reduce damage to the heart.

I haven't decided how to celebrate one year since the event.

Yup ya just never know.. ::)

I eat 2 eggs once a week on a thing my wife calls a Shanty Special she takes a muffin
split in a half toasts them puts sum margarine on both then covers each with a slice of
cheese then lays four pieces of Bacon across the two applies two poached eggs and in
the oven for a quick Bake and Whalaa Breakfast once a week.

I don't run but I walk a 1/2 mile twice a day I eat Bananas Onions Garlic Tomatoes Little
Bread No milk I Like Unsweetened Tea I like Sardines once in awhile in mustard sauce
things like this....and a good vino for dinner on Friday nights.

No Complaints from here.


73
Jack
KA3ZLR

Well MrMike, I am glad you got off with a warning. Long life to you!

Jim,
That was very interesting reading. I know a number of people harmed by statin drugs. My Dad took them for about three days and couldn't walk. He threw them in the trash. I guess I will continue to sit in the sun on the beach and enjoy the view.
Friggen pill pushers. I bet they don't do much business in John's present QTH.

Frank,

   That lady at MIT Stephanie Seneff has a PHD in EE and a BS in Physics/Biology. Interesting combination. This lady writes about how cholesterol works, how CVD starts, and then how statins change things. She does put it in words that most of us can comprehend. This is on topic with this thread.

http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/why_statins_dont_really_work.html

Here website:
http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/

Jim
JKO

Statin drugs are not an all or nothing prescription.    They do work and some have been shown to lower risk of death.   I have had the muscle reactions when my doc increased me a couple of times to the highest dose.    It takes a while sometimes for this to show up.  After going off of them completely for a while I resumed at half the previous dose.    The cholesterol was still low, but maybe not quite as low as with the maximum, but no side effects after a couple of years of the lower dose.

Broccoli in the morning
Broccoli in the evening
Broccoli at super time

I've computed the intersection of the various heart healthy diets and that's all that's left, broccoli.  I'm going to sign off now to write my future best seller, "101 Ways to Serve  Broccoli"

  Yes, but the broccoli is likely grown in fields depleted of sulfer (the whole reason for eating the stuff), and now the GMO broccoli is here.  :-\

http://www.pdazzler.net/2010/03/23/biotech-broccoli/

Jim
JKO

Well in that case, I'm switching food groups

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH9HlmVfdyg&feature=related

Well, then, start your own gardens. Kale, broccoli and peppers do well here, with lots of irrigation water.

Statins: My doc originally put me on generic 40 mg Lovastatin, which nauseated me and made me feel like crap. So he switched me to a 10 mg dose of Crestor. No problems with the smaller dose of Crestor, and it has had a remarkable effect on my HDL-LDL ratio.

I will say this- A retired doctor, my uncle, in a large Eastern city 4 years ago told me that there hasn't ever been a single heart attack incident with anyone on Crestor plus an aspirin a day.

Nothing about being hit by a truck, though.



Steve, you seem up on this..I think the newer Statins have far fewer bad side effects than the first one like Lovastatin. 10 mg vs. 40 mg for the same beneficial effect on me. Unfortunately, a lot more $$.

KZ3S said:
That's what happened to me. I asked my doctor to take me off of the statins because I lost about 50 yards off of my tee shots on the golf course. I felt extremely stiff after sitting in a chair for just a short period of time. My issue is that my HDL is low. One unique thing: when I was on the Atkins diet, my cholesterol and triglycerides were at there best level.

The link I provided earlier actually described in understandable terms why statin drugs damage muscle tissue. So does lowering the dose eliminate the problem, or just the symptoms?

Here is that link again:
http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/why_statins_dont_really_work.html

So while studying this stuff, I ran into another web site where doctors, and other scientists debate the issue. These are not quacks, just folks with good credentials looking for unbiased explanations. Here is this site:

http://www.thincs.org/index.htm

I really enjoyed all the articles submitted to, but rejected by popular medical journals. Very informative. Here is that link:

http://www.thincs.org/unpublic.htm

Do your homework fellas; nobody cares for us more than we do.

Jim
JKO

There is a fairly recent study¹ at Johns Hopkins showing supplementation with creatine my reduce the muscle damaging effects of statins.


1 - Annals of Internal Medicine, 2010, November 16; 153(10):690-2

Here is a reference to that study:

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2011/oct2011_In-The-News_01.htm

Jim
JKO