The AM Forum

Well, just great.
Now I'll have to buy batteries for my clock...   ;D


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5giHrMC9wYlOzOkUg9wNC2jVKugkw?docId=371623ab59694aef9f0a02fe83faca8a

Geez Bruce I always thought that 60Hz was one of those standards that was never to be messed with. I wonder what is going to be allowed to drift to save $$$?  I know little about how they create 60 cycle as I think about it. I can see it with a hydro plant...is the rotation of a turbine proportional to 60 cycles?

TVs used to lock onto the 60Hz freq IIRC, but perhaps no more.

~ps

I can't understand why this frequency variation would not cause problems with the rest of the grid. It one system is running fast it would be out of synchronization with the rest of the system possibly  causing heating in the generator itself. In order to change the frequencies to any extent with standard mechanical systems, they would all have to run faster. With windmills and solar cells I guess they could set the frequency with the movement of a mouse on a computer?  I was told once that for these large generating systems to pick up any part of the load that they must run faster than 60 cps by some very small fraction. Is this the way it works or do they just adjust the amplitude of the field    

If they're concerned with saving money, as they claim, maybe they should be more interested in bringing the voltage down to 110/115. Right now the incoming voltage at my house is 126!

Larry

   Check out the clocks in the pix that runs with that article...
     ??? ??? ;D ;D ;D

You should consider yourself lucky!! Around here it usually runs somewhere around 120-125 in the colder months, and 110-115 in the hotter months. The lower line voltage causes anything that is an inductive load to draw more current. (AC motors, air conditioners, etc)
This is their way of getting over on us, kinda like the butcher with his thumb on the scale.

Nothing around here (modern appliances) perform as well during the summer months.

"Officials say they want to try this to make the power supply more reliable..."

Well now, that statement jumped right out at me. How does NOT paying attention to the line frequency make our grid more reliable??? Yah, that makes sense... I'll just start ignoring that warning light on the dashboard and that will make my car more reliable!

This is curious.  Utilities have special power generators just for frequency regulation. It's one of the uses of spinning storage like this one that just came on line in New York, the worlds largest flywheel energy storage. I wonder how they can get away without frequency regulation.

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/06/13/largest-flywheel-energy-storage-system-fess-almost-up-in-stephentown-new-york/

What will be affected by a small line frequency change??
Your trusty Hammond B3 organ ! It uses a synchronous motor to drive the tone wheel assembly.
 I was doing the sound/concert production at a PA university some years ago and due to the lack of proper AC service in the building the school had to bring in a large generator.
 While not a problem to any of the sound or lighting gear, the varying load changes due to the dynamic lighting system loading caused enough, +/- a cycle or two variance, enough to knock the organ off key with the rest of the instruments. The performing band had a fit since the B3 was featured in all of their songs and drove the electricians in charge of the generator nuts with threats of canceling the show, etc if the problem was not fixed.
 It came down to just leaving the lighting unchanged and quite a bit of fine tuning the generators governor. You would think that the band could of at least had a modern  synthesizer keyboard instrument as a backup for such a problem.
  There are probably still quite a few old sound or pitch producing AC sync'd pieces of gear being used out there somewhere. Tape and record players. Anything that uses a synchronous motor.

Bill 

You're darned right this is curious! This almost seems like another far-out April Fool article published too late.

As I understand it, the interconnect between sections of the grid is via DC.  Big, BIG rectifiers / inverters make the actual AC frequency between the two sections a non-problem.

Anybody seen my Mickey Mouse wind-up clock?

73, Bill  N2BC

I am confused by this article.  The claim that all digital clock appliances will move off over time makes little sense to me.  In my experience, digital electronics in consumer electronics use rectify AC to DC and filter it as best is needed and divide a crystal generated clock signal to drive the TOD clock.  How wrong am I about this?

It's the same old problem........when human interferes with a computer controlled machine, the human usually crashes the system. We all have atomic clocks now.......RIGHT?? The speed of the hard drive or CD player will not change the pitch of the music like the good ole turntable...............RIGHT?? who needs 60 hz +/- whatever???

The illustrious electricians shudda put the B3 on it's own circuit from the grid.
I do not blame the band for their disgust. Musicians are pretty picky people when it comes to a performance. Nothing surpasses the sound of a B3 and the Leslie speaker cabinet............I'm one of those oldies that love the original sound.

Saw Deep Purple in Hartford 2 weeks ago. I was surprised to see them use a couple of Leslie's and Jon Lord still uses a Hammond too. Awesome sound.

I must have the wrong understanding of how it works. P = V*I, so a decrease in voltage is met by an increase in current which equals the same amount of power (watts) which is what the electric company meter determines and charges you for, not current. What you say about motors is somewhat true but the inverse is true for anything with a transformer; TV's, computers, DVR's, STB's, VCR's, radios, etc., far more devices than run on motors. They will run cooler, use less power, and their service life will be extended considerably.

Larry

Yes Larry, you're right. But what the math doesn't account for is the added heat the added current causes. When motors run hot they become LESS efficient. Less efficiency means more money.

Hammond tone-wheel generators have no built-in means to change pitch, so imagine our puzzlement when, as players, we heard a pitch change in the Boston song "Smokin'" illustrated about 3:20 into the recording below.  The riff sets up, and when the bridge is finished it pitches UPWARD like magic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83Be3wjAsi8

We always thought someone put a thumb on an open reel sub-master recording machine, slowing the tape speed down, so that when it was re-played in production the apparent speed increased.

In this arena hall live performance -- same song --

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_YUB8XKwb4

Around 3:34 you can see the B-3 and the Leslie (upper horn speaker a-revolvin' !!)
Sounds and looks like they substitute a guitar for the pitch change when performed live.

There's also a big theatre organ and at least one unidentified "keyboard," seldom played.

OH, and Bill, given the insistence of the band to fix the damn generator, it would have been sacreligious to substitute "a modern synthesizer keyboard instrument" as you suggest here.  Good thing you didn't say anything at the time. They sound pissed enough as it was.

---

NOTHING electronic has been able to replicate the acoustic, physical Doppler effect of sound produced by the twin-revolving speakers of the Leslie.  That's why you may still see what looks like a piece of furniture on the stage. The Leslie helps the sound of a synthesizer, some of which come pretty close to creating the characteristics of notes from the mechanical, spinning tone-wheel/inductors of the Hammond.

You're right, that's true, but the inverse is true when the voltage goes up for anything (most devices) with a transformer. In addition motors, by the motion of the rotor, have a built-in cooling capability, albeit small, while transformers have none other than what dissipates into the air. When you add it all up we would be better off at 110/115 than we are at 126 or higher.

Larry

The Telechron clock on your Hammarlund won't like the frequency change, and I doubt that ferroresonant or constant voltage transformers will like the frequency excursions either.

I imagine that there may be serious problems in large factories that have all operations synchronized for speedy production. Any glitch in one of the processes may cause problems downstream.

My Hammond organ won't care, unless I am trying to play with someone else.

I remember when Intelsat decided to let their geosynchronous satellites wander. It caused serios repercussions for dishes that were not designed to track constant movement, and also required tracking systems to be installed on many dishes that had not required them before.

Personally, I don't think that this decision was very thoroughly thought out.

JW

I haven't used my a.c. operated wall clock for years.  Got tired of resetting the damned thing every 2-3 days because our flaky electric service constantly drops with brief outages and  sometimes the outages are not so brief. I have a battery operated "quartz" clock that stays within a couple of seconds for months at a time.  So does my $30 Timex watch.

60~ a.c. clocks are going the way of CRTs, vinyl records, international short-wave broadcasting, carburettors, cassette tapes, over-the-air network TV, pay phones, mechanical analogue dials, etc.

A few cps of line frequency shift shouldn't affect most equipment that doesn't use a synchronous motor. Many of the transformer powered radios from the 30s were labelled "50-60" cps.  Some districts used to run 25~ power.  It hasn't been that many years since some districts in NYC still ran DC. Remember  the "a.c.-d.c." radios?

The problem with 125 v.a.c. is that so many appliances and equipment are designed for 115v, and the higher voltage shortens life. I run most of my stuff off an isolation transformer, and use the 115 v tap.  Problem is, sometimes the voltage dips to 110 or below during periods of high demand,  like hot summer wx or extreme cold.

The AC power coming from any commercial electrical power source is in 3 phases.
Each phase is 120 degrees out from each other. They are called "A" "B"
and "C" Phases.

In order to parallel the 3 phases to the grid, each A-B-C phase for your power
source (whether it's 100 watts or 5,000 megawatts, it makes no
difference) has to be in synchronization with A-B-C phases of the
grid. Every plant on the grid has to work in harmony, from Hudson bay to northern Baja
California. If a plant is returning to service after an outage VERY special care is taken to synchronize.  If bonding to the grid is tried while out of phase (even a fraction of a degree) your day will end badly.

In large units, this is done manually (or automatically) by using
what's called a synch scope with a rotating arm representing the
phase angle of the 3 phases as one, in relationship to the phase
angles of the grid. When they are at "unity", that is the arrow on
the meter facing straight up, the  paralleling breaker is closed. When
this happens the system grabs ( quite literally) the new  generator and the
3 phase angles move in harmony/synchronization. The speed of the
turbine/generator, whether 1800 RPM or 3600 RPM is then force driven
by thegrid and not your primary energy source (steam). No matter
how much additional steam (or water as in hydro) you add, the speed will
always stay the same. Additional steam, or hydro power will not add speed, it will add torque. By increasing the DC field this will increases megawatts.

In the article posted at the beginning of this thread it says “Tweaking the power grid's frequency is expensive and takes a lot of effort”. That is an understatement at best with dangerous consequences. If the North East for instance was experiencing a heat wave and utilities in that region allowed the power plants to run slower slightly to maybe conserve fuel. Every turbine in every plant nation wide would slow the same amount. Remember they are bonded and force driven by frequency. If a plant was trying to bond during fluxuations in grid frequency it could cause system trips and possible major equipment damage not to mention possible grid failure. I seem to remember a Canadian utility causing a cascading chain of events responsible for the largest grid failure in history. If I remember correctly they lost a phase while bonding and the dominos started to fall.  So, it seems unlikely allowing the grid’s frequency to drift for any reason makes no sense. From the utilities point of view the savings would be very small.

The article also says “Some parts of the grid, like in the East, tend to run faster than others.” And “East Coast clocks may run as much as 20 minutes fast over a year, but West Coast clocks are only likely to be off by 8 minutes. In Texas, it's only an expected speedup of 2 minutes.”  I’m no expert but this sounds like complete hog wash. This could only happen if  plants powering the grid from East to West are not synchronized . That just seems too far fetched.

I run most of my stuff on an Elgar 6000B AC Line conditioner at 115 VAC because the line voltage variations were moving the oscillators around and making me crazy.  It's a mighty fine beast but may not have enough oomph for a B3.  

For your listening pleasure and amazement, Barbara Dennerlein on the Hammond B3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60ut7yIuCEY

Hello Don,

I agree about the AC wall clocks. As I type this, straight ahead on the wall is an atomic clock.

But we have a number of appliances here (such as digital clocks) that use the precise 60 Hz line freq. to keep time. I don't think we're alone.

We just built some custom devices for a university, for a government-commissioned study. Those devices had common, off-the-shelf elapsed-time counters that depend on the accuracy of the 60 Hz line frequency.

Another poster suggested that equipment with internal quartz crystals is sufficient. But in my experience, the accuracy of those quartz crystals apparently varies with the competence of the manufacturer. Some are very accurate, and some might as well have balance wheels or pendulums. :-)

I've got a new favorite musician: Barbara!!!  Yippee.   Thanks you made my day.

Like the Mo' Fo' Junk digital desk clock I bought new in the box at a hamfest several years ago.

THIS IS GREAT NEWS!!!!

This might just be the boost I need to get my "Clock Setting" business up and running.

For a modest monthly fee of $29.99, one of our highly skilled "Time Master" technicians will come to your home every month and synchronize your clocks. This economy plan includes, but is not limited to: Wall clocks, alarm clocks, tv's, most vcr's, dvd players, coffee pots, dishwashers, and other appliances. You may opt for our Gold plan for $49.99 per month which includes all of the above plus vcr's older than 20 years as they require the services of a specially trained teenager for proper chronological alignment. Also included in the Gold plan are sundials, all manner of analog clocks (The really old one's with the hands), programmable thermostats, pacemakers, ovulatory cycles and other biological clocks. The clock on the stereo in your car is also included in this plan.

Investors, get in now on the ground floor of this exciting new venture. You can't loose!!

We're in between banks right now, so just make those checks out to cash.       

Paul, I remember my cousin doing something  with his B3 to change the pitch. When you first turn on the organ, you hold two spring loaded switches up and then let go. Now while the organ is operating, if you pull both switches up again whilst playing the pitch will change. Maybe a prestart condition to give the generator a kick start....
And thanks for the link for Barbara Dennerlin. smooth musician. Now someone please clarify something..........going off topic. I understand the foot pedals and bass notes.....I hear  the notes from the upper keyboard, but the lower keyboard, I see her hand moving and cannot correlate her hand to any notes. OR is it a harmony thing with the bass pedals???? I'm a musical dummy
Fred
On Topic.............I just realized from my "so what" statement about 60hz freq. NOW we'll have to go around checking all the clocks again. The oven  clock, the microwave, my clock radio. If they blink 12:00 after a power failure, they're dependent on the line freq.

Hammond was either the inventor of or refined the practical application of synchronous motors used in clocks.   The earliest ones didn't have automatic synchronization, so there was this little wheel inside that had a shaft out the back. You'd spin it, and along the way it would hit 60 rpm (or a harmonic) and the clock motor would grab the 60 cps from the AC line, and away you'd go.

With the Hammonds, the START and RUN switches achieved the same effect.  There was a starter motor that would spool up the motor driving the spinning discs along the shaft that comprised the tone generator.  At speed, and you hold it a second or two, lift the RUN switch (not spring loaded) then release the START. The motor then grabs 60cps and you're makin' music.

I have to think his trick was to screw with that synch.  If you cut the RUN switch while hitting a note it does go out of pitch, because the motor driving the tone generator has lost frequency. There's probably a magic combination of manually goosing the START motor and interrupting the RUN motor that you were hearing.

I never had foot pedals. They lift up and off the main chassis, and most are discarded.  There was always a bass player.  That part of the song was up to them, but yes, they fill in the holes of rhythm and lead sections with notes that relate to, but may not be at the same time or notes played by others.

Dennerlin might actually be playing what appears to be an RT-3.  Extra bass octave, more pedals at her feet than the standard rack.  I had a chance to buy one of these from WRVA in Richmond about 30 years ago. The station dates back to when they had live bands, and a high-ceilinged studio for performances.  A Hammond weighs about 1000 pounds, so the station, as did many, had their own for bands to come in and use.

Years later, the Hammond was on its way out as part of a remodeling, and a friend of mine I used to work with at a kilowatt daytime AMer in Laurel Maryland remembered that I'm a player.  Problem ultimately came down to money, but we went to see it and drooled a while.

Unlike most roadworthy B3, this one had no cigarette burns, it wasn't painted flat black, none of the keys were cracked, and what a glorious sound.

Actually, I have for a  long time pondered the idea of building a 60~ generator, perhaps derived from the WWVB signal, and amplifying it to a level that would run a 115 v.a.c. wall clock, and wiring it up with battery back-up.  That way I could run my old 24-hour a.c. wall clock and it would keep time despite our frequent power outages.

I have just had too many other projects on the back burner to take the time to develop it.  I'm not sure how accurate the frequency is with the commercially available uninterruptable power supplies sold for use with computers. One of those ought to work if the a.c. stayed on frequency, since the amount of power drawn by a clock would take a long time to deplete the battery.

I have two or three old clock radios with electric clocks and I always have one in operation.  They are useful in a crude limited way.  If there is a power outage while I am away at work and I come home to flashing lights and zeroed out timers and such, I can look at the battery clocks and the electric clock and quickly determine how long the outage lasted.   Then I am prepared for the disaster waiting in the freezer and refrigerator when I open the doors, if the outage has been long enough.  (But around here it has never been more than 45 minutes in the 17 years I've been at this QTH).  Other than that, I just like knowing what went on while I was away.


What do you mean "remember?"  I have two!  They work and sound great!  I run one in the kitchen on 100 v. 

Here is a shot of part of the main power distribution at our AZ QTH.  These meters are mounted in the transfer switch panel I built.

Today is Sunday, not much going on around here, electrically speaking.

Now maybe the freq pointer will move off the mark...someday.

I be watchin'

73DG

Checked out Ms. Dennerlin's playing... if anyone cares for a review?

No doubt she can play the Hammond technically very well.
However, she can't play like Jimmy Smith, Jimmy McGriff, Groove Holmes,
Jack McDuff or a number of others... since she covers a number of well known tunes, there's a basis for direct comparisons.

I wanted to like her, since the number of currently working B-3 masters is very thin...

Joey DeFrancesco is another player that I really want to like...

Can't.

Great players, fine technically, by that I mean the notes are all there, but there's no soul. The solos don't seem to have any focus, they're kinda flat all the way through. There's no tension so no release. Doesn't grab me at all.

Ah well... whatcha gonna do. At least there is the record that these past masters left behind.

                          _-_-bear

PS. these are just my opinions, feel free to enjoy Ms. Dennerlin's playing.

I've had problems with Elgars generating a crappy waveform making lots of EMI

Yezzzz, but "Watt Hour" meters really measure Ampere hours.................................

Actually Mike the whole country isn't sync'd together. Check out the link.

"The article also says “Some parts of the grid, like in the East, tend to run faster than others.” And “East Coast clocks may run as much as 20 minutes fast over a year, but West Coast clocks are only likely to be off by 8 minutes. In Texas, it's only an expected speedup of 2 minutes.”  I’m no expert but this sounds like complete hog wash. This could only happen if  plants powering the grid from East to West are not synchronized . That just seems too far fetched. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Interconnection

Steve

This quote from another public BBS sheds more light on the subject and explains the situation a bit better than that WIKI site.

"Since the reporting on this was non-technical, let me fill in some of the gaps.

Current practice is to strive for a grid frequency of 60.00 Hz.  However, as it turns out, it ends up a bit fast.  A synchronous clock on the power grid will gain time.  Currently practice is that when the accumulated time error reaches a few seconds (10 seconds on the Eastern Interconnect), they shift gears and try to hit a grid frequency of 59.98 Hz instead.  The idea is to "back out" the accumulated time error.  For the Eastern Interconnect, a control center in Indiana, near Indianapolis, sends out orders for all power plants within the Interconnect -- from Florida in the southeast to Saskatchewan in the Northwest -- to operate at 59.98 Hz for some period of time.  Of course, they all must do this in sync.

This procedure for deliberately running slow is called "Time Error Correction" (TEC).  In one form or another, the industry has been doing this since the 1930s, originally as an inducement that people should buy electric clocks (many of which were made by GE).

The proposal is to stop doing TECs, and to just allow the time error to accumulate indefinitely.

The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) is charged with regulating the _reliability_ of the interstate power grid. The industry maintains that this is a "business practice" issue, not a "reliability" issue.  That is, "how" TECs are performed is "reliability."  Whether or not TECs are performed is a "voluntary business practice." Nonetheless, there is currently a reliability standard (regulation), BAL-004, that might be read to imply a requirement for TECs.  The industry has petitioned FERC to amend this standard.  That proceeding is currently pending.

For the complete record on the matter before the FERC, start at http://elibrary.ferc.gov/idmws/docket_search.asp (http://elibrary.ferc.gov/idmws/docket_search.asp)  and search for all filings on Docket Number RM09-13 .  The nine documents on the docket provide a lot of information about the industry's position.

Additional information can also be found on the NERC website, under "TEC Elimination"  http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386 (http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386) .  Look at the Webinars.

The AP story mentions that the "field trial" is planned to begin in mid-July, where they essentially stop TECs on all three U.S. Interconnects to see what might happen.

   - Jonathan Hardis"

so really, the way that everyone here was interpreting it was the ac power is always a constantly regulated 60 hz, and the big idea was to not regulate it at 60 hz, but what is really happening is that the line frequency actually changes very slightly every so often and they are changing it so it remains constant?

Speaking of Hammonds these videos always make me smile.  :)

http://youtu.be/5q7P0VNwxSs
http://youtu.be/SWJhxZSxJZQ

I think I'll slip a link on the timing chain in my truck motor just to see if I am as stupid as this

Sounds like we're drifting into Third World status! In the appendix on electric power in various countries, Bill Orr's Radio Handbook lists the power line frequency in various countries and whether it is stable enough for running electric clocks, turntables, and other items with synchronous motors. All of the countries with unstable line frequencies are Third World countries with poorly developed infrastructure.

Some TV sets may have a problem with this, as the vertical deflection circuits, at least in older sets, are tied to the power line frequency.

Will I have to reset my electric watches????

what it really seems to be is a case of the bean counters or someone like that trying to make decisions on a situation that needs to be thought through by the engineers first. they think it is possible but have no idea of what is really happening from the engineering point of view.

With good reason !
Hellkvist has got it going on.
And at his age !
I mean, like when did he start, to be playing like this by now ?
I wonder if he's a test driver for the shop that repairs and restores Hammonds that you see in these videos.

Love the plastic cup of beer on top of that '70.  Best thing about some of these that have been toured is that when you bring them home, the "aroma" of old beer, sweat, and various smoking products all comes wafting out of the cabinet when it's warmed up from playing for an hour or two.

AND I would smack that fella for having a glass of beer on the organ.........especially if it's sweating.....water stain.

There was quite a clamor from musicians trying to copy that familiar click sound from the B3 with their synthesized organs......keyboard type in the 70's.

Damn - that dude can play!  Buckle up your seat belts.
Just love the jazz.


Here's a guy who can really play a pipe organ. "SpringTime for Hilter"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzbFxFoVZIo

T

Agreed, the same goes for beverages on top of guitar/bass amplifiers. Absolutely not! The key click is devine, though.

I have an M-101 and when I finish playing it I always have a silly grin on my face.

I just saw a group this past weekend.   They had what sounded like a B3, but only the top part.   It was a big old wood box with the back exposed.   
http://www.myspace.com/chrisvipond/photos/76825243

I used to repair just about all manufactures of organs way back when. The problem with the B-3's were when they traveled with them often they would forget to set the "Traveling" Screws to lock down the tone generators. Wires would tear off. It was an easy fix. Hammond's were a real work horse and they sound great with the so called B-3 music or in blues bands but otherwise leave me flat :'( :'( :'(  

This thread has been really amazing..............there are a lot of musical folks around here, who appreciate all types of music and have even preformed in bands or small combos. And actually play a musical instrument. Hooray for you!!!
I regret having no interest in music when my dad was trying to teach me clarinet.
Maybe there is hope to learn and accomplish something at 65???????????
And other discoveries of folks loving photography too.

Fred

Yup, same for me!

Technically great but no soul.

The couple linked to "tonewheeldude" were great though!

It's never too late to start. My great grandmother taught herself accordion when she was in early 80's and before she passed away when she was in her mid 90's she could play.

Yeah, the "top" is the most important part.

That's what's left of a B, alright, instantly identified by the quadrafoil design on the top side of the furniture. There are some great pictures in there -- the B&W for one thing, plus the visceral scent of sweaty women, spilt beer and a sticky floor.

Back before Hammond stopped making the B & C and other tone wheel models in 1974, many, many examples of the B3 had their legs sawed off, road handles attached, and the top of the lid knocked off so someone could put an auxiliary keyboard on top.  (there's a lip on the hinged lid that covers the leading edge of the lower manual that's nearly always missing)

The original wood finish was typically spray-painted flat black to hide the cigarette burns and beer rings, and thus you had a "roadworthy"  Hammond, set to go.  All 900 lbs of it.

Of course, people today are aghast, but it's very much like the folks who ripped out the modulator deck on "old" tube transmitters so they'd have a lighter CW rig or whatever. I mean, who uses AM anymore ?  A modern plastic radio is the same, just like an electronic "keyboard,"  ah-hehnh !

---

And to Bear's comment --


I got the same impression. At least she's not reading sheet music to play, but yes, she seemed very mechanical. Precise, but sterile.

In the same thinking, a good drummer isn't really noticed, but the obnoxious ones with too many trills stand out, and not in a good way. Once heard in a club, by the joint's owner or manager, "Okay you musicians and the drummer, set up over here ..." 

Yet, good or bad, a drummer really can't be "replaced" by a drum machine. The small variance of a human's playing, responding to the rest of the band, is magic.  Just like Doppler out of the Leslie. You know it when it's fake. Same with tone wheel musical notes.

AAAAHEM
here is some easy info on the B3 and turning it on. Hi!.......spring loaded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hopUp1qBbJ4&feature=fvwrel

and a look at the heart of a Hammond (in this case an H model), the tone generator...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qqmr6IiFLE&feature=related

That's right Fred, the START switch is spring loaded. The RUN switch is not. That's why it stays up.

Also there's a good frame or two showing the "lip" on the lid that's missing from most of them. Of course it gets in the way of your auxiliary plastic keyboard.


And peek-a-boo -- there's one, of a pair of 6550 showing in that Leslie.  A proper band always points the Leslie with the horns toward the audience so they can SEE the mojo going on.  That's a revolving baffle next to the amp, with some black silk or cloth mesh on it to keep the odd beer bottle from reaching its mark as it spins around.


To N0WEK -- that's a good discussion of the tone generator you posted. It occured to me while I was watching it run that it resembles the gear train in the R390(A).

Same lubrication needs, too.

It was tedious but very satisfying to give the old girl a drink now and again. The little funnels that took it into the trough, with the threads to "wick" just like he described.  Still have a can of l'essence ...

Back to the topic at hand ..

Eimac has always had the best Power Grids of all,  IMHO.   OH,  off  to my corner.

Vic

Ar, ar, ar.  Too funny ;D ;D ;D

73DG

Well we went out to dinner the other night with friends and since I was driving, I suggest we visit the site that is causing so much of a buzz, err hum. Well anyhow here are a few pictures I took of the facility. It was surprisingly quiet. It looked like it was running because all the big disconnect were in the on position. Somewhere I read that it will be in full operation early next month but it looked like all the work was done. I'll be back in the area in a few weeks to see if the hum level is up and will kept you all posted.

And you can see more at the link below. The Duffis with the long hair going bald is me. I don't know what the hell I'm so happy about??

https://picasaweb.google.com/Captionmarvelous/POWERFLYWHEELS (https://picasaweb.google.com/Captionmarvelous/POWERFLYWHEELS)

  "I don't know what the hell I'm so happy about??  "


.....probably 'caus you got two chicks hangin around you.

klc

I've met some ladies you definitely could call 'power flywheels' 8)

73DG

What about things like UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supplies) commonly used on computers, servers, workstations, etc.  Apparently in addition to monitoring incoming line voltage they also monitor frequency. For instance, every so often my UPS will switch to battery for a few seconds and the reason giving will be "unacceptable change in line voltage frequency".  How much variation can they tolerate ? Could this possibly cause some UPS's to switch to battery and not come back on line ?

Most smaller (under 5 kVA) UPS (like APS) units are relay-switched, and will not black start.  They need that 60 Hz kick to get going in the beginning.  (All mine are older production)

Those types actually have a few milliseconds of no output, but the usual pc tolerates that dropout.

If you have a unit that will go to work with no power input with just an 'on' command, you have a better/newer brand IMO.

73DG

All the APC I have will do that -- will cold start with no input power.

600 to 2400 VA capacity range