The AM Forum

I was in a QSO today where one of the guys who had both mics thought his B1 sounded better than his RE-20. He thought the bottom end was better on the B1 and it was less prone to magnetic pickup.

I have only the RE-20 and notice the mic will not pick up hand waving in front of the mike and is sensitive to transformer hum.  The B1 will respond to these extreme lows as demonstrated to me.  Of course handwaving isn't used on the air for communication except maybe for sign-language... ;)

The cost between the two is big, like $600 vs: < $90 new for the B1.  At that price I might try one.

Anyone have similar experiences or strong opinions either way?

Bottom line is it appears the B1 is an excellent mike for the money.

T

Hey Tom, a lot of people have had good luck with the MXL990 that's sale priced at $50. It ain't a Neumann, but you get a decent condenser at a bargain price, check it out.

http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&source=hp&q=mxl+990&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=awCHS_2MMsHPlwfdgK01&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQrQQwAA (http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&source=hp&q=mxl+990&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=awCHS_2MMsHPlwfdgK01&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQrQQwAA)

I was using a Heil Goldline but a few people said it didn't sound like me.
So for XMAS I got a Behringer STUDIO CONDENSER MICROPHONE C-1 and a Minimic MIC800
Ultra-Compact Microphone Modeling Preamp with built in phantom power supply for the Mic.
Got them through Amazon for really good prices. Mic was $30 something dollars and the preamp was
$40 something dollars.
The preamp has a VU meter for more swinging monkeys and one of the selectable modeling positions
is:"Authentic VTC Tube Modeling technology creates the warmth of vacuum tubes" whatever that means.
Anyways the people who had negative comments about my Heil now say I sound better however one says I sound the
same? Bottom line is that I am satisfied especially  for the price. The system is very sensitive and picks up everything.
The lows are there but the preamp has a "Dedicated Low Cut filter eliminates unwanted noise, e.g. floor rumble"
The preamp has a input gain control and an output level control.

Regards
Q, W1QWT
 

T

RE -20  Cardioid,  Dynamic mike,  designed for the broadcast environment

B-1  Cardioid,  Condenser mike,   Designed for the recording environment, susceptible to RF.

RE-20 , in production for over 40 years, maintains its value, Broadcast standard to this day. Designed for the broadcast industry and sound reinforcement.

B-1,  Been around a few years, the capsule is known to fail in time. I believe there were a couple guys from the northeast that had failures over time. I think Bill IFR had two different condenser mics that failed in time. Speaking of capsule the B1 uses the same capsule that Marshall, MXL 99, and a few others use. They sound great and like most condensers there are most effective in a recording environment.

Most will never be able to tell the difference and the extreme lows and highs a condenser will produce will never reproduce on the other side in most cases.

Dollar for dollar --   EV

Just my two cents.

G

From my experience working recording studios and live sound, Shure, E-V or Audio-Technica. A-T has some excellent mics for the money. Shure and E-V have been around since dinosaurs roamed the earth and, with the exception of the ribbon mics, will take any abuse you can throw at them and sound good doing it. You really can't go wrong with any of the three. Remember that most dynamic mics have a pronounced 'proximity efffect', wherein the closer you work them, the bassier they sound.

73,
ldb
K5WLF

I love my MXL-990.  It has to be the best bang for the buck in a Hi-Fi Ham station mic.  50 bucks with a shockmount and case.  Large diaphram condensor.  Sensitive FET.  You do need a preamp and phantom 48 volts.  I never had a problem with RF in the mic. 

I just do not get the infatuation some AMers have with condenser mics.   In all my years I have never seen a condenser in a broadcast AM station.  W2INR is 100% correct.

Why run a mic that will pickup every sound, every low frequency rumble (big problem for AM tube rigs), make your shack live unless you have stuff like foam on the walls....I can always tell a guy is running a condenser--his plosives make him painful to copy.  To avoid that and pickup of any blower sound you have to employ ridiculously elaborate pop screens, a noise gate...you have to roll off the low frequencies at around 100 hz if you want to be intelligible...or you can just get a relatively cheap Shure SM58 and pop sock and a lot of this goes away and trust me, no one will know the difference on ham AM.  The only thing is you have to get right up on the mic--you can't sit back 2 feet away from it and yack.  Only places I see condensers (besides ham shacks) is NPR and recording studios. 

Rob   

You've heard 'em both at from my station Tom. I'm usually on the MXL990. But I have used the B1 and the Shure Pro-log (hi Z SM58).

Huzman's recordings tell they all can be made to sound very good. With the processing equipment around today you can probably make a wet noodle sound good.

For HAM use (in my finacial situation) the 990 and B1 are unbeatable.

Quoting Rob ..

Why run a mic that will pickup every sound, every low frequency rumble (big problem for AM tube rigs), make your shack live unless you have stuff like foam on the walls....I can always tell a guy is running a condenser--his plosives make him painful to copy.

Gee Rob, that's not necessarily true.  Expanders sure help.  I think D-104's pick up WAY more ambient sounds and dogs barking, blowers blowing, wives calling, operaters farting, crickets chirping, traffic moving, planes flying, chairs squeaking...... etc etc.... than my MXL-990.  *shrug*  ::)

I have been using a B-1 for 5 years and with a behringer vx 2000 on a Gates tx that is "open frame" with no sheilding....No RF problems ever....

Sorry John--my severity is due partly to having been on the receiving end of a barrage of distorted breath blasts from condensers.  But I'll admit that part of the reason dynamics are used in broadcasting is their physical ruggedness in the hands of talent.  Say, here's a question:   It seems that with the sensitivity of a condenser, the audio from one is going to be more volatile.     How do you prevent unexpected modulation over 100% downward unless you use a fast broadcast limiter?   Just wondering.  Maybe this isn't the problem I think it is.  I know a lot of the ESSB guys use condensers but modulation limiting is not something they have to be concerned with.

73

Rob

Hey Rob, No problem.  I do hear those pops and explosions from some guys running condenser mics.  I had a pop filter because it was offered as a bonus with the mic during one sale run on it from musiciansfriend.com .  I found it way too big and unwieldy especially since I have as part of my station, my computer monitor.  It was simply in the way.  So I got a huge foam windscreen instead.  The ART tube amp studio also has a feature called OPL. "Output Protection Limiter" I'm sure it's pretty basic but it helps.  Mostly I watch the scope and it doesn't take long to really get a feel for the distance from the mic.  I have monitored myself through the receiver headphones and usually do this unless I'm just listening to a QSO or I have someone in the shack that I am demonstrating my station too.  It's not rocket science really.  The Behringer processor has a de-esser that does help a bit too.

I'm certainly no audio engineer but I know what sounds good to me!  Early one morning on 3.880 AM, Bob Heil, K9EID said my audio sounded great.  That's good enough for me!

John

Behringer C1 - $40. You could buy ten for the price of one Rotten Eggs 20 or 27.

I think that's half the fun of ham AM.  I can hear Astubula Bill walking across the room, making comments, adjusting stuff, dogs barking in background, kitties mewing for milk..

....or Frank's Carol in the background making appropriate comments or "Hi's"...

...or ZRF's moustach raking across the PTT line  ;D

I guess most of you know that I run a D104 into a 15 meg load MPF-102 source follower into either the de-yellowfied 32V or into a PA amp with 5 band EQ 'backwards' AF output into the 572B's for the 813 rig,  so I'm no audiophile by any stretch, but sure have fun listening to y'all.

The assymetrical pick of the crystal mike, coupled with my assymetrical voice really look good on a scope when the plate leads are swapped properly.  ;D

Based on what I see at hamfest, many hams are very assymetrical!    ;D

we try..

"uh, thank yuh,
thank yun very much."

best bass voice I ever heard was from a badassymetircal.

you can tell from my voice how skinny I am. (comparitively speaking, urk ;D)

FWIW:

RE20=US made
Behringer=Chinese made

Keep some jobs & $$ at home.

dg

As with most hams the answer is --  they are cheap  .

Heh. We aren't broadcasters. Comparing a ham station to a broadcast station is not valid.

WAAAAIT a minute!!!!!!!! Folks like STEVE 'QIX, thrive on 10 cycle audio floating around the shack and muddulating the carrier.
And Glen Beck and his $3000 microphonium??? I bet it isn't even potted up!!!!
Phred

Wealthy Rotten Egg owners are people too, Steve... :'(   ;D


OK, that settles it. I'm gonna stay with my RE-20.

What started this is I might build up a new class E rig as a girlfriend for Fabio. I noticed QIX had 10hz audio in the shack (as Fred said) and figured I might as well get ready with an appropriate mike. Fabio doesn't pass 10hz very well without having severe gas problems nor does the RE-20 do 10hz..

Thanks much for the varied info and opinions. The fine operational distinctions between a condensor and dynamic mike are good to know.

T

G said:

EXACTELY! And they work. (by MY definition (which is the only one that matters in my shack) "of work")

Now when my ship comes in and I can afford to indulge I most definately will migrate to the BETTER stuff. AND.... it is better ..... no doubt. But for a hobby at this point in my life; $49.95 beats $600 or XYL beats OM! :o

Well, ya don't gotta be so SMUG about it.  ;D

I'm not so sure it's as much about being cheap as it is about getting the best bang for the bux. The BBC show Top Gear reviews different high performance cars and compares them for price vs. performance. Quite often you can get great performance for a lot less money if 10 more HP and brand name recognition isn't the most important thing to you. I know a few folks running the B1 who financially could buy any mic they want. And they sound fine, you'd be hard-pressed to tell any difference in a side-by-side.

There's also the other extreme where someone buys the RE-20, a bunch of outboard distortion processing gear, and adds a bunch of excess bass that their voice doesn't have naturally, all in some attempt to sound like Don Pardo or such.

So you've got both extremes - the cheapwits who think everything is worthless (unless they're using or selling it) and the braggarts who think owning the best makes up for the rest. And the majority of users fall somewhere between, with perfectly acceptable audio, regardless of which mic they're using.  With your location and aerial system Tom, you'd sound good on a soup can.


LOL!!! I LIKE that phrase, Buddly!!  ;D

that stuff is all crap. This is teh gold standard right here. dont even need a transmitter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqZQmS8KeLM

YEAH only $14.88!

MR. Microphone II includes an FM radio. I say connect the FM radio's speaker output to the TX audio input.   Derb, you be walking and talking in no time, caw mawn!


T

What a bunch of broadcaster wanna bees! Use your electronic printing presses for something useful, instead of passing worthless 10 Hz signals.

Whales, elephants and dinosaurs can hear 10 hz.  They're people too....  :'(

T

It just occurred to me that some of you may not know about the mic listening room:

http://www.miclisteningroom.org/

73

Rob

Isn't 10 Hz around the same frequency as the imfamous "brown note"?

Good God, if there ever was a product I can see someone tiring of almost immediately, that is it.

73,

Bruce

And here's the "hacked" spy version of Mr. Microphone.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOMTN39N7d8&NR=1&feature=fvwp


Notice the bong on the left.

T

10Hz/microphonephools/audiophools/ ...................................... ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

"Jeff, does Heather know your calling here. "
"No Monica told me he's dumber than toast."

Oh I used to tape my sisters. When you live in a house with cardboard walls you just drill a small hole in the closet and hide the mike in the old shoe pile.

What good is 10 hz audio on the airwaves?

For ham radio use:

My 4 x1 rig would reproduce a 6 hz signal . Paul VJB and others were here and we hooked up a signal gen and watched the meters for the modulators pulse back and forth as the plates oscillated. When we tried to do it on the air no station on the receiving side could hear it. (I am sure there are a couple true HI Fi stations that could reproduce the note.) It was good to know the rig could do it and it assured me that the rig would be true on the frequencies voice uses.

For Sound reproduction:

On a microphone it is called reinforcement. Having a mic being able to respond to extreme frequencies will pretty much guarantee you that it will be on track in the normal ranges used.

Anyway you have a great mic T, it will last you another 20 years.

G

Yes, I can testify Gary's rig (pr. 833A into a 4x1) was passing single digit AF, amazing.

Not only were the meters dancing like that, but I had never seen the glow of the plates in modulator tubes THROBBING like we witnessed that time.

As far as I know, I am among the earliest stations on the East Coast who selected the Electro-Voice RE-20 as the main station mic, in the late 1980s.  The mic far surpassed the capabilities of my main transmitter at the time, a homebrew set-up with a pair of 810s into a pair of Amperex 7527A.

The benefit is that the microphone was not the component constraining the overall quality of the system. And I think that's where a the RE-20 might beat the B-1.  The differences will be subtle at the most, but perceptible for those of us who have taken the time with a good receive setup.

Unit-to-unit quality control is part of the reason the EV is expensive. Studios with multiple examples of the mic need unit-to-unit consistency in output level, frequency response, and long term reliability.  A single mic may crap out and you simply get another one, no big deal.

It's also true that condenser mics don't seem to have the response pattern available with cardioid dynamics. So if you're in a noisy room, or one with a lot of acoustic reflections (like from glass, hard walls, or other surfaces), the condenser will not be as "good."

The other points are valid about the cost-benefit ratio, but none of us can pronounce that judgment for someone else.

10 Hz or 1 Hz, what's the difference when you aren't on the air?

Right.  Another reason why stations keep buying the same mics.  If everything is set up for the RE20 you don't want to have to go to the trouble of working in a different mic.  The cost of that in terms of salary and mic is usually more than the cost of just getting another RE20.

Hams who don't want to spring several hundred dollars on a RE20 (not to mention the costly articulated arm and holder and the special EV pop sock) can find dynamic mic substitutes that are practically indistinguishable as far as voice audio is concerned.  For example, I have done rapid A/B comparing with the PR20 and RE20 and listened to another ham doing the same thing and the difference is there, but it is so subtle that you would never notice it if you were not clued in to listen closely.   In my book if you swap mics and no one notices anything then it's the same mic but your checking account has an extra $300 in it.

Rob

Now wait a minute !   ;)  I have a near-silent background, and I use a B-1.  No breath pops either  :D  I also own an RE-20.  The RE-20 is a very good microphone, no doubt about it, but I happen to personally like the sound of the B-1 better.  The B-1 certainly and without a doubt has a wider frequency response, and it appears to be flatter.   With the B-1, there is no pickup whatsoever from magnetic sources, which abound in my shack.

The RE-20 is definitely less sensitive with respect to picking up background noise, and when I use my generator (which is located beneath the shack and produces a low frequency rumble), I use the RE-20.

We used RE-20s when I was in broadcasting, but there were also some large diaphram condenser mics in use.

My B-1 is pretty old, and I've never had one bit of trouble with it.  I believe damp, cool environments are a problem over time with the B1.

Regards,

Steve

Good one.

How far's the old needle in?
   -ought to be a song.

You have to realize that some hams have phase changes, lots of stuff or all the stuff gone.  The periods range from a year or so to a decade.

I have tried a bunch of mics.. I dont own an RE20.  But would like to some day.  I can tell you That the best hands down has been this MXL large diaphram condenser mic.  They are about $99. They need phantom power.  Because of this, Its hard to let go of $600 for the RE20.

C

Clark,

Well, after all said here, I've decided to stick with the RE-20. I'm glad I axed, cuz it saved me some time and $$.

I think the major reason is that I have blower noise from both Fabio and Dr. Love.  The RE-20 does an excellent job with its pattern. But as some have said, the B1 tends to pick up more room noise for whatever reason. That wud be a killer for me.

I did notice the RE-20 to be sensitive to magnetic fields, but finally positioned it away from the offenders.

I've also decided the 10hz response wasn't important to me... ;D  So, RE-20 it is.  BTW, I paid only $200 for it and a shock mounting used - from Mike/W2ZE who gave me a sweetheart deal. I sent it back to EV after something broke loose inside. It was a common problem and they replaced the cartridge for a new one. Like a new mic!

T

One day I will find one and try it out. I sure like the tone out of of those RE-20s

C

I couldn't have said it better. I'd like an RE-20 but my mic budget is well short of $600. But it's fortunate there's a lot of choice out there in the lower budget range.

Well, reading the comments and applying the logic provided for the RE-20 being superior/hams are cheap/etc, we'd all have to be running $1500 RCA 77 or 44 ribbon mics as they have been broadcast and recording industry standards for decades and are still used today. Not bad for 30s/40s technology. This basically makes the RE-20 the 'cheaper alternative', or the B-1 of mics in the industry.  ;D


My out-of-phase period lasted 11 years or so, due to work, travel, and life rather than lack of interest. G's been through a couple, he use to own every piece of Johnson gear made, then Central Electronics, can't remember what else. I have no doubt the thrill will return. WX permitting,  HUZ and I are heading up there in a couple weeks to snag that 21E before he changes his mind.  ;)

both mics sound great.
I prefer the RE-20 due to its tight pickup pattern, the mic tends to pick up your voice more than the computer fans/cars driving by and ants farting
plus the RE20 is very rugged
check out the polar patterns for each, it says it all

Hmmmm... I have seen the patterns before, but for whatever reason, I don't get a lot of room noise pickup using the B1.  I'll have to pull out my RE-20 and do some on-the-air tests (A - B) tests with both mics. 

Tom, maybe I'll leave the RE-20 set up and when I talk with you, I can conduct the test(s) and you can hear whatever differences exist.

We used the RE-20 at various broadcast stations I worked with, and we also had a couple of condenser mics.  The difference, listening on a very good of monitors, was QUITE noticable with respect to flatness of the frequency response.  The response of the condenser mic was extended and flatter.  Whether of the listeners at home noticed it was another story, however  :D  And that's probably the key here!

Hi - I have configured both microphones - the RE-20 and the B-1 into my system, and can switch between them instantly.

I made a number of tests listening in the headphones, but will reserve comment until anyone who might be interested in hearing the test actually hears it.

If you don't have a pretty good receiving setup, you will likely notice virtually no difference.  The mics are quite close, with some differences in frequency response.

I'm also currently using a transmitter with an audible fan, and the fan is only a few feet (maybe even somewhat less) from the microphones - and is in front of the microphones (the particular transmitter is behind me), so this may make a good background noise test as well.

I'll try to be on 75 later this afternoon, and on 160 tonight.

Regards,

Steve

One thing is for sure.

They both look good just sittin' there!

Thanks for the mic plots, Blaine.

Yes, I notice the RE-20 has a nice null directly behind it. I usually watch the scope blower noise and position the mic for minimum hiss. It's good for an extra -10 db when set correctly.

For ssb I find the blower noise to peak voice signal ratio should be -40 db or better. You can get away with -30db, but anything less starts to grate and sound like a machine shop on the air. You can easily measure this by tuning in a remote receiver, sock a yallo normalized to S9+40 over and watch where the blower noise settles. S9 or less blower noise is the goal.

On AM, -40db is mandatory and -50db or less is even better.   Blessed are those with quiet rooms and remote transmitters.

BTW, the air hiss also has to be pure white noise air. If there is bearing noise whine mixed in, forget it.

Steve, I'll give a listen to your mic changes and make a recording later today if I hear you.

T

Interesting topic.  Thanks,  Tom,  for asking the question,  and for the replies.  Have been wondering about a new mic.  Have thought that,  while the topic is very subjective,  it might deserve a button of its own in the Handbook section,  as general guidance.

I've felt that a dynamic for my applications would be the best,  but it is difficult to $tep up to an RE-20,  or 27,  but the result may be worth it.  Most of my rooms are very live,  so the tight cardioid pattern should help.  And,  to me,  the proximity effect seems desirable,  and so on.

Thanks,  VIc

Vic,  get a Heil PR20. Much cheaper than the RE20 and to my ears almost no audible diff.  If you or anyone else can afford an EV mic FB.  But if you can't you can't.  PR20 is excellent sub.  Also the hardware to hold it is less $$ because for one thing, the mic is lighter weight.  Bob's mics are slowly getting headway in broadcasting.  Besides being a good mic, one reason the RE20 and 27 dominate AM broadcasting is intertia.   Engineers and GMs and anyone else who makes purchase decisions are risk averse.  I would be too.  I would not want to risk trouble when I could simply buy old faithful.  No one ever got fired for buying more of what works.  But we're hams, it's okay to try to save some coin.   You can go to the mic listening room www.miclisteningroom.org (or maybe it is .com) and download and listen to files of dynamics that might interest you.  It is a collection of sound bites where the only variable is the mic.  They used as little audio gear as possible and had a professional announcer read copy on a bunch of different mics.  It's a cheap way of hearing a lot of expensive and less expensive mics.

Blower noise:  I could not operate without a noise gate.  It is the only thing that keeps my Behringer 2496 in the audio chain.  That box has the best noise gate (a.k.a. downward expander) I have ever used.   If all else fails, get one used, just for that.  All others I can hear it cutting in and out but this one is like it isn't there until I put it on bypass, which I occasionally do to show hams I'm working what they're missing.  They always encourage me to put it back in  ;D

73

Rob

I dont care for the Heil.  It has an odd sound to it. Nowhere near the RE20. 

That webpage is ALOT of fun. I use VLC media player to play the FLAC files.  It a small program. 

The AKG 914 is killer.   

TOM, Listen to the MXL 990. It has that wonderfull Condensor sound.  Its the same element as the one I have.  Just older.

THanks for posting that link!

C

--begin smug, smart-(you know what) comment--

Or solid state rigs  ;D ;D ;D
--end smub, smart-(you know what) comment--

(I couldn't resist)  ;)

Thanks Rob,

Well,  Ive listened to the EV RE20,  and perhaps the 27 on a different site,   and some of the Heil PR mics ...  And have heard a PR-40 run by KO6NM,  Mike,  which sounded teriffic,  Have heard a PR-30,  which I thought did not sound so great,  but am sure that most of the differences are in the way different OPs EQ them.  Several people TT I hear on SB are running PR-40's,  RE-27,  and Large COndenser mics,  many sound just fine.

I do not have large pipes,  so probably the carbon mic from a WE 500 Handset would be just fine.   The mic selection has been a lingering question in the back of my mind.
Thanks for the info,    Vic