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Author Topic: Sb220.... Prices going up.  (Read 7703 times)
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KD6VXI
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« on: March 21, 2017, 02:46:09 PM »

Almost 1.1k$, and still climbing.

I had planned on keeping mine, since it and the FL2100 are the only thing I can consider portable.  But man, if it's worth this much....

122402448503 is the item number.  Over on the bay.  

I didn't post in the ebay section because I considered this more for a laugh than serious for any readers of this board.

1079 dollars at the moment.

--Shane
KD6VXI

edit (Mod): the actual link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heathkit-SB-220-HF-Linear-Amplifier-Collectors-Piece-Perfect-Condition-RARE-/122402448503?hash=item1c7fc12477:g:NZMAAOSw4YdYzHgj
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w1vtp
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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2017, 04:38:11 PM »

That is *WAY TOO MUCH*  I bought, built and ran a SB220 back in the 70's.  I didn't think the cooling was enough.  The power supply is a doubler.  In short, there are some excellent choices out there for NEW, ALREADY BUILT amplifiers that will outperform the SB220.

However, if one has a whole lineup of Heath GREEN that begs for a SB220 the perhaps it's worth $1,000.
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K1JJ
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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2017, 04:58:52 PM »

For a well built 3-500Zs type amplifier, I've always liked the Henry 2K series. (Actually own one)  It's 1960's quality with strapping components, nice tank circuit and "real" chimney air cooling.   They can be had for around $600 the last I checked.

Plus, the 3-500Z is STILL one of the cleanest linear-designed GG tubes around.

T
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KD6VXI
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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2017, 05:30:50 PM »

Now, on the other extreme......

192130239847

I just scored this for ten bucks and change.

--Shane
KD6VXI

edit: (Mod.) the actual link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Huge-Lot-of-Vintage-Ham-Radio-Parts-Capacitors-Transformers-Resistors-Meters-/192130239847?hash=item2cbbdacd67:g:7jAAAOSwOgdYyF3D


Mod, thank you.  My ebay app doesn't copy a link, just the item.  Lamesauce
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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2017, 09:15:10 AM »

I've have my SB220 for about 20 years. About 3 years ago I decided that it had to be rebuilt - the caps were showing their age and the rectifier board really needed to be upgraded to the Harbach version. I started the rebuild by installing a brand new set of Eimac 3-500Z's. The amp has been sitting on the bench ever since, orphaned by my ACOM 1000. I'm seriously thinking of selling it to someone who wants to finish the job - at a good price. Lightening the load makes the wife happy!

They were good amplifiers
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KD6VXI
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« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2017, 09:32:43 AM »

I'm in the same boat with mine.  Bought the stuff to upgrade it, found a filament spring lost tension, bought new sockets, etc.  They are all sitting there, ready to be put  in.  Same thing with my FL2100 and new style cotton clone tubes, new sockets  etc.  Sitting in the parts rack.

Now that I have many projects in various states of completion, and I've had a ticket for 25 years, am I OT?

Old Timer or Off Topic? Lol

--Shane
KD6VXI
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w1vtp
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« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2017, 12:23:48 PM »

For a well built 3-500Zs type amplifier, I've always liked the Henry 2K series. (Actually own one)  It's 1960's quality with strapping components, nice tank circuit and "real" chimney air cooling.   They can be had for around $600 the last I checked.

Plus, the 3-500Z is STILL one of the cleanest linear-designed GG tubes around.

T

Agree.   If one is COMPELLED to buy a dusty, cosmetically challenged amplifier - usually the silver on the switches is corroded- especially the band switches - at least let it be properly designed amp...

I know I'm throwing water on the SB-220 lovers but that particular amplifier was marginally designed without proper cooling and a power transformer (make that power supply) that is equally marginally designed from the get go.  Not a good choice for AM operation.  SSB operation?  Sure. But not with a price tag of around a kilo buck. 

I wish I was 30 years younger - I'd take on a Henry but at 80, it's out of the question.  Guys, set your sights higher than what the SB-220 offers - again - unless you have a space of Heathkit green that is begging to be filled, consider something with more beef.  Stay away from  voltage doubled power supplies unless it uses really beefy components.  The Henry is the benchmark of amplifiers that will handle AM but there are also some Ameritron linears - that you can still buy new (or used, if you insist) that will give you legal limit without straining a rivet.

Al 

PS: I know I left out some great amplifier brands but 7 kilo bux are a little out of the scope of this thread.
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W1DAN
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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2017, 01:36:07 PM »

Folks:

These prices are a result of the tubes getting hard to find. The SB220 was a good value, and I also like the Henry 2K better, but no longer worth the weight or effort.

For me solid state amplification is far too promising these days. Better transistors are out and lighter overall weight.

Dan

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K1JJ
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« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2017, 02:45:14 PM »

Folks:

These prices are a result of the tubes getting hard to find. The SB220 was a good value, and I also like the Henry 2K better, but no longer worth the weight or effort.

For me solid state amplification is far too promising these days. Better transistors are out and lighter overall weight.

Dan

Yes, a big MOFO solid state homebrew linear amp would be my choice if I started from scratch.

I would get a handful of the latest high power transistor wonders and build up a SS amp that was capable of dissipating 5KW+.  Huge heatsinks -  make it bulletproof using fast shutdown and failsafe circuitry with excellent, silent air cooling.

THEN, drive it with an SDR that has a version of "Pure Signal" software. (and SS IPA driver if needed)  This will give us a no-tune, DC to light system capable of at least 5KW out pep... and a signal as clean as the fallen snow. (-50dB+ 3rd order IMD at full power)

T
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2017, 10:06:37 AM »

For a well built 3-500Zs type amplifier, I've always liked the Henry 2K series. (Actually own one)  It's 1960's quality with strapping components, nice tank circuit and "real" chimney air cooling.   They can be had for around $600 the last I checked.

Plus, the 3-500Z is STILL one of the cleanest linear-designed GG tubes around.

T

Agree.   If one is COMPELLED to buy a dusty, cosmetically challenged amplifier - usually the silver on the switches is corroded- especially the band switches - at least let it be properly designed amp...

I know I'm throwing water on the SB-220 lovers but that particular amplifier was marginally designed without proper cooling and a power transformer (make that power supply) that is equally marginally designed from the get go.  Not a good choice for AM operation.  SSB operation?  Sure. But not with a price tag of around a kilo buck. 

I wish I was 30 years younger - I'd take on a Henry but at 80, it's out of the question.  Guys, set your sights higher than what the SB-220 offers - again - unless you have a space of Heathkit green that is begging to be filled, consider something with more beef.  Stay away from  voltage doubled power supplies unless it uses really beefy components.  The Henry is the benchmark of amplifiers that will handle AM but there are also some Ameritron linears - that you can still buy new (or used, if you insist) that will give you legal limit without straining a rivet.

Al 

PS: I know I left out some great amplifier brands but 7 kilo bux are a little out of the scope of this thread.

Granted, there are better amplifiers out there.  But for the money, it's really hard to beat the SB-220.  And operating at the 200 watt carrier level on AM it will run forever.  And because the SB-220/SB-221 was as popular as it was, there's a lot of support with aftermarket mods and parts.   
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Steve - K4HX
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2017, 10:58:03 AM »

For sure Eric. I don't understand why some claim the SB-220 cannot be used for AM when there a plenty of people on the air using them. W2JBL has been using one for decades.
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2017, 11:18:33 AM »

Heathkit really nailed some of its products like the SB-220, Apache/DX-100 and others. The only limiting factor in many cases was/is the quality of construction. Saw my first SB-220 in the early 80s and was very impressed and surprised at the quality.

As to basing price trends on ebay sales, I think most folks who regularly visit hamfests and other venues know prices aren't rising on much of anything with respect to old gear. Clean/rare/high quality examples will certainly command a premium, regardless of where. If you want the convenience of one stop online shopping and potentially getting into an ego contest with someone else, ebay's the place to go. But as you've seen Shane, you can also score some really good deals there if you look around or at just at the right place at the right time.
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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2017, 09:29:45 PM »

Now, on the other extreme......

192130239847

I just scored this for ten bucks and change.

--Shane
KD6VXI

edit: (Mod.) the actual link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Huge-Lot-of-Vintage-Ham-Radio-Parts-Capacitors-Transformers-Resistors-Meters-/192130239847?hash=item2cbbdacd67:g:7jAAAOSwOgdYyF3D


Mod, thank you.  My ebay app doesn't copy a link, just the item.  Lamesauce

Score!
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KD6VXI
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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2017, 11:51:00 PM »

Looks like 300 to ship it here, freight.  1600 lbs.  :-)  or more, that was their conservative estimate.

Or, a 6 hour drive each way, plus losing a day's work....  I see freight!

Gonna be like Christmas all over again!
--Shane
KD6VXI
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« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2017, 12:12:48 AM »

If you buy that, please post some more pics!
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« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2017, 03:37:06 AM »

I have rewound many many SB-220 transformers. Not enough iron in them, in my opinion.
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w1vtp
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« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2017, 09:09:09 AM »

I have rewound many many SB-220 transformers. Not enough iron in them, in my opinion.
Regards,
TRS
Gary

That was sort of my point.  I loved my SB220 but it is, in my opinion, of marginal design fitted for SSB service but with the doubler PS design, lack of iron and poor cooling design - oh yes, the earlier models had a parasetic problem that had to be corrected.  I reiterate that I loved my SB220 but for $1,000, there are much better amplifiers new and of better design.

Again, if you have a lot of Heath green, it might be worth the $1,000 to complete the Heath green linup an it works great on SSB service

Al
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« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2017, 11:37:13 AM »

I've certainly learned lessons over time from books as well as from physical amps with marginal power supplies and tube complements. The old books say a generous safety margin should be built into equipment. This IMHO also means 'service margin' because the intent was to avoid component failure. That was in the AM and FSK time, before SSB and other 'carrierless' modes were very popular.

The manufacturers seeing SSB and those multi-tone digital forms which required less average power to work, as well as editors and authors of the later editions of books, for the most part, lowered the level of excellence where AM duty is concerned, from approximately CCS to ICAS and even into the pit of IVS (yuck). Some reasons were probably to make it fit on a desk and produce a cheaper (price competitive) product or project. It should be mentioned that FM suffers somewhat as well especially since most amps don't include an efficient class C mode.

The SB-220 as it is, is 'in ratings' for the 200W carrier level but that is about it's real full rating as the transformer is really not up to more. So even there it's full throttle. Myself, I would run it lower, at 100-150W carrier to keep heat lower and let it last a lifetime. That's how I run the NCL-2000. I tend to get into long winded round tables. Those doing short duty communications could push harder and get away with 200W carriers. Also, just because someone uses one at 200W and it lasts for many years does not mean it is not slowly working towards some major failure due to the heat.

If the SB-220 was designed to a real spec for AM, it would need three 3-500Z tubes, as two will barely provide legal limit power, and should also have a transformer with a true 2KVA rating and a full wave bridge with a resonant choke for best regulation, or at least a standard choke input filter, or it should have the best quality 3-4KVA transformer with lowest impedance, rectifiers rated 2-3x the highest peak current expected, and a large filter capacitance so that the plate voltage would be more closely maintained from idle to full output. The plate voltage would also be 3000-3500V, instead of the lower voltages usually used. The idea there is to reduce the time the tubes spend at their maximum plate current rating for the equivalent power output. The cooling system would absolutely have chimneys and a blower able to supply 1.5x the airflow needed to remove the 1500W plate energy possible from the three tubes at their maximum ratings and incidentally prevent the tube socket contacts from getting so hot that the solder is weakened at all.

At that point the SB-220 would hardly be contained on a desktop but it would be something like what an full ratings AM amplifier should be.

Such an amplifier probably could make about 2600W according to the data sheets, but it is up to the operator to control the equipment and take responsibility for correct operation. On AM at 1500W peak power it would last a lifetime before repairs except very occasional tube replacements.

For all these reasons I leave the ham amps built after about 1965 to others, with a few exceptions.
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« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2017, 07:42:34 PM »

     A mentioned a few posts back by Tom JJ I have been running SB-220 amps for 40 years. Just recently I replaced the ORIGIONAL tubes in the amp I got in 1977. They still looked very nice too- almost no brown deposits around the bottom of the envelope and they still had very good emission. I ran that amp at 300 watts carrier and 130% positive peaks for many many years and the only problem I ever had was the fixed loading cap for 80 meters blew when I accidentally keyed it into no load. In 2006 I put in a Peter Dahl plate transfomer, Harbach filter caps, power supply board and fan. If you can't afford anything else get that fan. The amp runs much cooler. Ten years ago I got a second SB-220 which is origional and mint condition. I run that one at 250 watts with legal limit positive peaks. No trouble at all, and I make old buzzard transmissions. Note that I run both of them on 220 volts.

    I recently heard a very very well known AM'er of high techincal prowess tell somebody his SB220 was only good for 150-175 watts on AM. This is BS!  I have found if used intelligently (like reduced power on 10 meters), and tuned properly
these amps hold up very well.
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« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2017, 01:36:21 PM »

Doing a quick scan of Zed sales, going back to Oct 2016, about 10 units, prices range from $450 and $900 were the outliers, the rest were in the $500-$600 range.
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