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Author Topic: ANAN 10 Question  (Read 27949 times)
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WD5JKO
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WD5JKO


« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2015, 12:15:21 PM »

The radio does 10 watts out on CW and I would expect it to do 10 watts pep, but it looks to be about 6.

    Brett,

   I wonder how you are measuring power? Most power meters are rated at something like +/-5% or even as high as +/- 7.5%, and that is at full scale! A watt meter measuring 10 watts on a 200 watt FS range can be easily +/- 50% off and not be out of spec since there is no accuracy guarantee anywhere except full scale. Then there is that PEP stuff where every meter designer more or less integrates that peak, and gives you a number. I'd consider it a coincidence if two PEP watt meters read exactly alike with speech. The MFJ un-powered meter I have shows PEP at 2X carrier when the oscilloscope shows 100% upward at 2X the amplitude of the unmodulated carrier (4X the power).

Jim
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« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2015, 02:08:01 PM »

First off, I adjusted the power calibration (for 40 meters only) and can get 5 watts carrier and 20 watts pep out, so its possible to set things however you want till the radio blows up (or melts down).
4 watts carrier and about 20 watts pep is ok with the AM carrier set to 80%.

Sounds good once I put the TX eq on.
I put all the buffers as small as they will go and there is still enough delay to make me sound like I have brain damage.
I tried the built in monitor and the mod monitor and can get the delay almost low enough to be ok.

Made a few contacts barefoot on 40 meters (5 watts out), one with WB9AGK, Indiana is a good hop from NJ.

It seems like a good radio to put into a solid state amp and run at 50 to 100  watts carrier out if you can deal with the delay (not monitor yourself).

I expect Ethernet to be quick and low latency, maybe some computers process Ethernet differently so I will test the radio on other computers.
USB ALWAYS seems to have a good amount of latency, after all, you plug all sorts of things into the bus, mice, keyboards, radios. There is a big buffer in USB I expect.

Firewire was quite fast and low latency, maybe bandwidth limited.

In all cases, the transmit audio sounded clean, and the receive is the typical SDR high fidelity.




 
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AB2EZ
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"Season's Greetings" looks okay to me...


« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2015, 02:16:38 PM »

I agree with Jim

I once talked with a fellow whose small company produced a digital wattmeter which displayed "peak power". I asked him why he didn't design his meter to actually capture and display the true peak envelope power of an AM or SSB signal when the modulation bandwidth was around 3kHz... rather than displaying a much lower peak power number (about 60-70% of the true PEP).

He told me that customers were used to buying peak power meters (like Bird model 43 with a peak power adapter board installed) that only read about 60-70% of the true PEP when driven by a voice modulated SSB or AM signal. He said that his customers didn't want a meter that reads the true PEP because his customers want their true PEP to be higher than 1500W... and they want a meter that (falsely) shows that they comply with the FCC PEP rule.

Stu
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WD5JKO
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« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2015, 02:35:28 PM »

I put all the buffers as small as they will go and there is still enough delay to make me sound like I have brain damage.
I tried the built in monitor and the mod monitor and can get the delay almost low enough to be ok.

    Perhaps you can tap off your audio going into the SDR and use that to drive a headphone amplifier. The latency will be essentially zero, and you will hear yourself just fine.  Tongue

I find it interesting how much delay there is in over the air digital TV. Satellite is way worse! It is what it is.. Cannot use local AM sports station to get the audio to replace the TV audio...too much delay. :-(

Jim
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« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2015, 05:08:14 PM »

I can not say exactly how far off the peak reading is on my watt meter, I can only compare it to other transmitters.
Most will do 4 times carrier, and the meter itself has three scales, 20, 200 and 2000.

I noticed an odd thing on my radio, I can adjust the radio to do 5 watts carrier and 20 watts pep indicated on my watt meter on 40 meters, but on 80 meters I get 10 watts carrier and 15 watts pep using the same settings.
I have to turn the AM carrier level down to about 10% to get 3 watts carrier and 15 watts pep, while 40 does 5-20 watts at 75% carrier.
Maybe some sort of band pass filter tolerance...


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w1vtp
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« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2015, 06:04:19 PM »

I agree with Jim

I once talked with a fellow whose small company produced a digital wattmeter which displayed "peak power". I asked him why he didn't design his meter to actually capture and display the true peak envelope power of an AM or SSB signal when the modulation bandwidth was around 3kHz... rather than displaying a much lower peak power number (about 60-70% of the true PEP).

He told me that customers were used to buying peak power meters (like Bird model 43 with a peak power adapter board installed) that only read about 60-70% of the true PEP when driven by a voice modulated SSB or AM signal. He said that his customers didn't want a meter that reads the true PEP because his customers want their true PEP to be higher than 1500W... and they want a meter that (falsely) shows that they comply with the FCC PEP rule.

Stu

Stu

We've had this discussion somewhere in the past and it squares with my experience in my station.  Here are three slides that I use to demonstrate the relationship with peak reading on a scope, my Bird set to average and finally it set to the peak reading setting.  There is one slide missing: the one where I set my carrier to full scale on the scope while watching my Bird for a 1500 watt carrier level. All this while using my 1500 watt load. 

Al


* Slide1.gif (270.89 KB, 949x630 - viewed 638 times.)

* Slide2.gif (267.73 KB, 959x634 - viewed 675 times.)

* Slide3.gif (267.94 KB, 955x635 - viewed 590 times.)
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WA2SQQ
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« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2015, 08:27:46 AM »

Brett, I heard you on the air over the weekend. Sorry I was not able to jump in. While you had enough audio, it was no where near your normal sounding audio - definitely lacking highs. I had my 6500 opened up to 10 khz. Just curious why a brand new radio requires you to do a transmitter alignment? A friend of mine had one of the higher model Anan's and he found that the IMD spec was unacceptable until he did this alignment. Poor QC? It's kinda scary (to me) when a you risk the possibility of damaging the radio if the carrier is set too high. In the end he decided to go with a Flex 6700 - far less tweaking, more time to enjoy the radio!
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W3RSW
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Rick & "Roosevelt"


« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2015, 08:58:11 AM »

Re-read Rob's no. 24 and preceding posts (good explanations) after Anan's entry into building the Hermes card and with others' subsequent software enhancements.

-- then :
It's a calibration procedure to marry Flexs' legacy software via the now modified Power SDR
for use in driving a garden variety 20 watt pep amplifier at 12 to 15 watts or whatever you choose.  Since the gain varies for each ham band, you set each band at say "39db," or "X" etc. to achieve a constant output of your choice. Most guys set it at no more than 15 watts.

Naturally at 10 watts (The nominal sales rating), the IM, etc.
will be considerably less than at 20 watts.

Here's a nice description of the Hermes board written in pre Anan times by N9VV.
http://n9vv.com/Images/Hermes/Hermes%20an%20Introduction%20October%202011.pdf

Also I sure liked Stu's and subsequent filter latency explanations.  Stuff to remember about "free lunches. "
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RICK  *W3RSW*
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« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2015, 11:08:10 AM »

Part of the time running the radio on the weekend the TX eq was not turned on.
I may have forgot to click the box or it reset itself...

I can understand the needing to set the gain of each band, flex would likely do that for you while the ANAN stuff is not really being sold as a finished rig.

But why the big difference in the way the radio works between 40 and 80 meters?

Its not just output, but peak power and the ratio of peak to carrier with the same settings.
40 meters seems to act just like it should, and 80 meters is all wacked out (but still sounds ok).

Latency is expected, but at what level?
500 ms is getting bad, I can get it to a full second with buffer changes, or maybe down to 250 ms with the smallest buffers (almost ok).
The flex 5000 would do about 100 to 150 ms without the buffers being the smallest.

I will test the radio on other computers...

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Mike/W8BAC
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« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2015, 11:41:39 AM »

Brett,
You have probably already done this but have a look at your setup parameters and compare them band to band. Once set and saved on 75 meters you may find settings are not the same on 40. This includes main screen drive settings.

Robert, SQQ
Doing a software calibration has nothing to do with a transmitter alignment or product quality control. The Flex Radio equipment, from the SDR-1000 to the 5000 as well as ANAN products all required calibration. Using a new rig without calibration is not recommended.

Mike
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W3RSW
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Rick & "Roosevelt"


« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2015, 11:43:20 AM »

Brett, Perhaps the early Flex software written with softer filter attack and release times as per Stu referenced calcs.

Was your experience real tr/Rd delay in QSO with Someone?
Were the earlier Flexes picking off audio sampling before the heavy digital lifting as already suggested and as in some instances still occuring in Flexes?

You had this problem with QS1R too as I recall.
Interesting.
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RICK  *W3RSW*
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"Season's Greetings" looks okay to me...


« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2015, 12:47:42 PM »

Brett

At least two things are definitely wrong with your observed ANAN10E behaviors:

1. I have a 10E, as you know, and I have carefully measured the latency by using a digital oscilloscope and also a Symetrix 322 digital signal processor, as a delay line, to compare (and also to align in time) the 10E's audio input to the 10E's demodulated RF output.

The measured delay between the audio input and the demodulated RF output (observed with my REA modulation monitor) is approximately 68 milliseconds. Note that the audio is being applied to the microphone input on the front of the 10E, and this measurement is, therefore, being made without the use of VAC.

I'm using a 1024 sample transmit buffer (see the setup => dsp => options window) on phone. Note that 1024 samples / the internal digital filtering sample rate of 48k samples per second = 21.3 milliseconds of delay (latency) associated with the transmit digital bandpass filter.

If I change the transmit buffer length from 1024 samples to 512 samples, which reduces the steepness of the bandpass filter skirts from around 47Hz (passband to stopband) to around 94Hz (passband to stopband), the total delay (latency) decreases from 68 milliseconds to approximately 54 milliseconds.

Note: The DSP settings (e.g. the transmit buffer length) are set (and saved) separately for each "transmit profile". So, for example, if you change from 3100Hz SSB to 5000Hz AM... make sure that the DSP settings are what you want them to be.

2. My 10E has a peak output power on all HF bands that I have consistently set to 12W ... using the "tune" mode, with the drive set to 100 on each band, and the transmit power calibration settings individually adjusted to between 50 and 39 on each band. It appears that you have something set wrong ... that is causing your power output to be low on 80m.

The improper setting could be any of a number of things... including the 80m drive setting or the low pass filter settings (setup => general => ant/filters => LPF).

The drive level is set (separately for each transmit profile) by a combination of the "drive" control on the main GUI display, and the drive-related settings in the setup => transmit window. Make sure that the "tune power" box is set to the tune power level you wish to use, and that the "use drive power" box is not checked. Alternatively, check the "use drive power" box... and then use the main GUI display's "drive" control to adjust the drive power. 

The LPF settings are supposed to be set automatically via the firmware... but it is conceivable that the 80m setting is not correct.

Separately, in the setup => general => hardware configuration tab... check what the ANAN10E's firmware version is (lower right corner of this window). If the firmware version is not 1.3, you might want to go through the process of flashing an updated (i.e. version 1.3) firmware version into the ANAN10E's RAM/FPGA.

Stu


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Rick & "Roosevelt"


« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2015, 03:13:40 PM »

Brett,
Also make sure you haven't inadvertently set a large xmit latency as per:


* Power SDR for Brett.JPG (157.1 KB, 994x712 - viewed 564 times.)
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RICK  *W3RSW*
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« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2015, 03:30:46 PM »

Robert, SQQ
Doing a software calibration has nothing to do with a transmitter alignment or product quality control. The Flex Radio equipment, from the SDR-1000 to the 5000 as well as ANAN products all required calibration. Using a new rig without calibration is not recommended.

Mike I've owned the Flex 5000 and now the 6500. Aside from checking the frequency calibration (with WWV) I've never had to do any alignment or calibration. I've created profiles, but these were done for operating convenience. I think the Anan radios are incredible, but they seem to be more about constantly adjusting, updating and experimenting rather than operating the radio for the enjoyment of the hobby. No argument, they do sound very nice!
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N2DTS
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« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2015, 04:20:10 PM »

I think you are mixing up the delay between going from RX to TX to audio delay through the system.

My problem is when I speak into the microphone, the audio in the mod monitor or the radio built in monitor is delayed enough to be unusable.

The screen you are showing is the delay time between switching from RX to TX.






Brett,
Also make sure you haven't inadvertently set a large xmit latency as per:

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N2DTS
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« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2015, 04:28:55 PM »

And I must say, I did not expect the radio to be plug and play, all sdr's take some setting up as you have control over so much, every aspect of the radio can be adjusted which is a good and a bad thing.

I never had to do any calibration with the Flex stuff, maybe it would have been a good idea but they seemed to get close enough out of the box to not need it.

Part of the fun of this stuff is you get to play with things, lots of things, without letting the smoke out (most times).

And the QS1R was a USB based receiver and so has all the USB latency built in.
I have run an sdr-iq on many different computers, along with a flex 1500 and other USB based radios, and every radio had a lot of delay on every computer if it used USB.
The only radios (so far) I got the latency low enough to use with a monitor was the flex 3000 and 5000 on firewire, and not even on really fast computers.

There MAY be big buffers on some Ethernet ports/cards and not others...
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W3RSW
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« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2015, 05:18:16 PM »

Oh, ok.
Well fwiw I hear my voice on PowerSDR monitor through phones right from the Anan 10 just slightly behind from what I speak.  I'm running an old ASRock Atom computer. Delay Just enough to be a slight echo, not enough to get tongue tied. Sounds like someone with just a bit of echo from their audio lashups.

On some settings of the Qs1R it was enough to actually hear a couple of words for what was true RF modulation going to the dummy load.  Grin
Actually good for what I sounded like, just like playing back a tape.

All the Power SDR default settings seemed to do ok for first plug-n-play trials. 

Well keep plugging away. You'll find it.
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RICK  *W3RSW*
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« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2015, 05:54:19 PM »

Personally, I prefer to have all the calibration tools available to me. This is one of the things that irked me about my Flex 5000. After the v2.x.x versions of PowerSDR the PA calibration routine was locked down in the hidden routines and if your power output was not to spec you had to send the rig back to Flex for calibration. The PA calibration was only possible with an embedded software routine in a hidden menu and required a code file from Flex to be placed in a particular folder and an LP100 meter connected with a dongle to run it. Fortunately, I kept my old versions of firmware and vintage PSDR versions so I could follow the convoluted instructions to go backward with firmware and successfully calibrate mine, but most guys were stuck with sending the box back to Flex. It's so simple to run through the PA Calibration table in OpenHPSDR and set each band for 100 watts output using the tune button with the drive slider set to the max. It takes less than 5 minutes and once you've done it that's it, no big deal. Take a screenshot of the PA table and keep it for future reference when a new version of OpenHPSDR comes out.

I have never heard of anyone having the issue you described when comparing AM output between 40m to 80m. The ratio is locked to the transmit profile, not the band. As someone said, you might not have the PA Calibration setting adjusted correctly for the band that will not produce the expected 4:1 ratio between PEP and carrier. I have found an AM Carrier Level of around 80 to guarantee me around 120% positive peaks across all bands. One thing to note is that if you enable pre-distortion while running AM the asymmetry will go away. I think the algorithm interprets it as distortion and so it corrects it.

I'm not sure why you are seeing such horrible latency Brett. I'm using a UMC202HD interface to run my hardware audio chain into the computer through a USB port and use VAC to run that into OpenHPSDR and I get results similar to what Stu measured. I can easily tweak it even tighter to get it down another 10ms or so, but it really isn't even discernible the way it is currently set when monitoring my own TX audio. Maybe you could post some screenshots of your Audio>Primary tab and your DSP>Options tab for one of your AM profiles. It might be something simple.

73,

Rob W1AEX
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One thing I'm certain of is that there is too much certainty in the world.
flintstone mop
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« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2015, 07:35:36 PM »

I hate to throw water on the new state-of-the-art SDR's and their exotic design and wonders. Not singling out any particular manufacture. But spending all of that money on something that is flea power like 3-15 Watts of power is major RIP.
And then folks looking to pay another frickin $1500 for an amp to bring it up to 100 watt final. Crazy.
Now I see a thread where someone wants to amplify the flea
power from an Anan 10 to something usable. Geeesh

Just my .002 cents worth of criticism.
Fred................feeling a little feisty today in the hospital

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Fred KC4MOP
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Rick & "Roosevelt"


« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2015, 08:09:19 PM »

Mopster,
Glad your feeling a lil' feisty today.  Great! and keep em coming.
We're rootin' fer ya.

Bret,
A pix to warm Fred's heart.
Here's a screen shot of Latencymon on my old beat up Atom330 with PowerSDR running.  The ol' computer hain't so hot it seems but works ok with reduced, say up to 96k 'bandwidth.'

If you haven't already this or similar program, get latencymon v 6.5 home edition (fware) from
http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon

Edit : and another screen without PowerSDR or internet running, just all the windows junque and AVG.


* latencymon with PwrSDR running.JPG (195.12 KB, 1033x899 - viewed 520 times.)

* latency mon 11 30 2015 without PwrSDR.JPG (111.32 KB, 1016x629 - viewed 501 times.)
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RICK  *W3RSW*
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« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2015, 08:18:27 PM »

Well, the sdr's can get really good audio out, like if you send a square wave into the box, that is what comes out the antenna, even at 20 Hz.
No, you do not need that, but the ability to do it is interesting.
Some people like the idea of perfect.

And don't forget, you get a world class receiver built in.
There is no analog receiver that comes close.
Bandwidth, filters, distortion levels, the band scope, you can spend $20,000.00 on an analog receiver and not get as good of a performance.

I do not have any use for a 5 watt or a 25 watt radio other then fooling around with it, it would never be my main go to radio, but plenty of people use all sorts of radios into an amplifier, even silly ones like a dx60.

You could use one barefoot though, rough on the person at the far end maybe, but Stu has fun even with a poor indoor antenna at 20 watts carrier.
I worked Bob, WA2SQQ on 80 meters tonight with 5 watts...

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« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2015, 08:42:07 PM »

I hooked up my old computer (quad core AMD) that used to run the Flex 3000 and 5000 ok and downloaded the software for the ANAN.
Ran at around 20% cpu, same latency through the system.
The cpu usage is higher on the ANAN then it was on the old Flex stuff.

The difference between 80 and 40 meters was the same.

I went through the process of setting the tune power output to 15 watts on each band from 160 to 20 meters which was easy and quick to do.
The difference between 80 and 40 meters was the same, high carrier power output on 80 and low peak power.
Same 15 watts out in tune, ssb could get to 15 watts pep.

I tried sample rates of 48k to 386K, all the different buffer sizes, and with the smallest buffers it gets to reverb levels.
Of course its fine if you do not monitor yourself, some people do, some do not, and I suppose it would be fine not to since you can see what goes out on the screen.

I worked Bob and he said the audio sounded very bassy, so I cut it all the way and boosted all the highs and it sounded better. Old but nice radio shack 600 ohm balanced dynamic microphone.

Has anyone got the quick record and playback to work well?
Used to work great on the Flex stuff, seems to be mostly noise on the ANAN.

The firmware is 1.2 in the radio, not sure what the firmware does.
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AB2EZ
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"Season's Greetings" looks okay to me...


« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2015, 09:03:48 PM »

Every 100W transceiver includes multiple stages of amplification. I.e: a buffer amplifier (around 1W output), an intermediate power amplifier (about 10W output), and a final amplifier (100W output).

There are also some newly introduced, commercially built, ham radio amplifier products that incorporate new types of FET devices that can produce close to a kW out with only a few watts of input power. (They are currently not FCC compliant unless they ship with an installed input attenuator that the customer can remove).

Apache Labs makes a (nominally) 10W output transceiver (the ANAN 10E) with a $995.00 list price. They make a (nominally) 100W transceiver (the ANAN 100B) with a $1995.00 list price.

They are essentially identical, except for the inclusion of a 100W solid state final amplifier on the 100B's "amplifier/filter" board.

I purchased an ANAN10E directly from ANAN in January for $895.00 (the introductory, new product, "pre-order" price), and I purchased a separate Elecraft KPXA100, 100W solid state amplifier, directly from Elecraft for around $700.00.

The Elecraft amplifier uses the same pair of output transistors as the ANAN100B uses.

I prefer a separate transceiver and amplifier. There are fewer thermal management problems, the amplifier will not lose resale value over time as quickly as the transceiver will, and I can use the 100W amplifier with other QRP transmitters/transceivers (like my FT-817 portable transceiver).

Stu


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"Season's Greetings" looks okay to me...


« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2015, 09:19:15 PM »

Brett

In the ANAN products, the FPGA does all of the high speed digital signal processing, and also performs many of the on-board device control functions (like controlling the relays that select the low pass filters, push to talk, T/R switching, ...). The firmware is the set of software instructions that is used to program the interconnections of the gates in the gate array... and, therefore, the processing that is done by the FPGA. The firmware is stored in a RAM on the ANAN10E's "Hermes" board, and is loaded into the FPGA when the ANAN10E is powered on.

Audio processing, and processing to produce the displays (e.g. panadapter display) is done by the PC.

Again, there are a number of settings that are set and stored separately for each band. Something appears to be set wrong when you select 80m as your operating band.

Stu
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« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2015, 10:29:02 PM »

What firmware is current?
My radio has 1.2.
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