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Author Topic: Switching back to landline?  (Read 19080 times)
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KC2TAU
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« on: July 06, 2015, 08:07:28 PM »


Has anyone had any experience switching from a digital phone service back to landline? We've had digital phone for a few years. I wasn't aware (the decision wasn't mine) of the installation of the eMTA (modem) at the time and so after a time I noticed that there some unpleasant RFI emanating on the bands every 100khz or so. I tracked it down to the digital phone eMTA. It's a model made by Arris. Unfortunately, the power supply is built in to the modem and there seems to be no way of isolating it and feeding just the modem itself with clean DC power. The other hurdle is Time Warner does not seem to allow any other eMTA other than this one Arris model. Even other models made by Arris still have the built in power supply.

At this point I've been thinking about switching back to copper landline (i.e POTS - Plain Old Telephone Service) and I was wondering if anyone has done this as well and if they've received any resistance, raised eyebrows or have any suggestions. The POTS provider in this area is Verizon and I've heard some stories that they try to railroad people into their FIOS/Digital Phone package. It'll be interesting trying to convince them that, no, I just want copper. Thankfully the hardware is still present in our house.
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Pete, WA2CWA
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« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2015, 08:17:10 PM »

Is the Arris model a cable modem/phone box?
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Pete, WA2CWA - "A Cluttered Desk is a Sign of Genius"
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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2015, 08:23:11 PM »

The trick to "convincing" them is to say something like this- "I want plain old fashioned copper wire based telephone service. If you want my money, that is what it will take to get it."
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KC2TAU
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2015, 08:31:10 PM »

Is the Arris model a cable modem/phone box?

It just services digital phone. The cable modem for Internet is separate. Other companies make modems for digital phone that have outboard (wall wart) power supplies. These are easy to replace with a linear supply. I'm not exceptionally versed on the world of digital phone connectivity and so I wonder if I do swap in another brand modem if the hardware at Time Warner's head end will still play nicely with it.
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flintstone mop
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« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2015, 08:50:48 PM »

No the digital phone modem from your cable company is programmed to look for the server for your phone service.
It's not going to be easy to convince Time Warner there is a problem unless a tech comes and visits and you demonstrate how this device is affecting your Ham radio station.
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Fred KC4MOP
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« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2015, 08:57:48 PM »

RFI isn't the only thing I'd worry about. If I'm having chest pains in the middle of the night I don't want to hope that I'm not in the middle of a power outage or that my modem went into orbit and needs reset when I go to dial 9-1-1. No, POTS isn't fail safe but I'm not aware of anything out there yet that can equal its reliability overall. POTS is still the best we have under that scenario, but it's going away and there's nothing we can do to stop it.
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« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2015, 09:15:33 PM »

Good luck on switching back to the older copper line.  Verizon in our area is all Fios and once they hook you up the copper is clipped with very short leads!  They just don't want to maintain the copper anymore.  Even folks with DSL service get lousy service since its all copper based. 

Joe-GMS
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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2015, 10:13:03 PM »

Around here AT&T does not have anyone who can repair copper pair, so if you want a plain telephone they give you a box and a phone.  The box is a cellular connection and the phone plugs into it.

If you happen to live in a rural area with a small, independent phone company they may have copper connections and have someone that can fix the line.  I have helped the local guys a few times when things go wrong.  They always want to know how I know how to test the line.  Good luck!
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Pete, WA2CWA
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2015, 10:42:03 PM »

Is the Arris model a cable modem/phone box?

It just services digital phone. The cable modem for Internet is separate. Other companies make modems for digital phone that have outboard (wall wart) power supplies. These are easy to replace with a linear supply. I'm not exceptionally versed on the world of digital phone connectivity and so I wonder if I do swap in another brand modem if the hardware at Time Warner's head end will still play nicely with it.

I have an Arris box and it's both a cable modem and provides two telephone line connections (they also have for just one). Power supply is built inside the box. No RFI getting into any of the radios.

Have a friend that still has POTS. Lost dial tone; waited a week for Verizon to come out. Cleaned cross-connect terminals at one of the neighborhood street boxes. Worked for about a month, and last I heard, dial tone was now intermittent. POTS is not a good investment today.
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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2015, 11:06:26 PM »

What about simply wrapping the egress cables with some ferrite beads or clamping some on?   Seems some 43 and 61 may kill that.


--Shane
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2015, 12:49:25 AM »

This makes me glad I live in AZ.  POTS is regulated by our Corporation Commission, and prompt repair service by Century Link is mandated by law in the deal that allows them to offer internet and cable TV.

If I have a problem, it is usually fixed the same day.  Not bad for almost 7 miles of copper to the fiber transition into the metro.

DG
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« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2015, 02:03:27 AM »

Has anyone had any experience switching from a digital phone service back to landline?

Since I happen to be the Moderator of The Telecom Digest, I suggest you ask this question there: we have several thousand regular readers whom have a lot of experience with this sort of issue.

You can send a post to telecomdigestsubmissions at telecom-digest dot org. I'll obfuscate your email address if you want: just put "[obfuscate]" in the subject line.

73,

Bill, W1AC
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Todd, KA1KAQ
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« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2015, 09:29:29 AM »

I went through a similar process that ended up back at a real twisted pair. As Jim mentioned, aside from all of the other issues, not having a phone line when the power is out was not acceptable. We had Time Warner Cable, perhaps the worst customer service in the entire universe. We went without service for several days due to a blown splitter from a nearby strike. Their reps weren't clever enough to figure it out on their multi-layer screens. Finally got one who knew what he was doing, and got a tech out here to fix something I could've done myself in 5 minutes or less. At least he left me some spare splitters in case it happened again, but we dumped them a while later. Even when the power was on, their modem was forever resetting for no apparent reason.

In the meantime, Verizon sold off their rural routes to Frontier, so that's who we have now. And no, having a cell phone is no guarantee either. Cell sites overload fast in emergencies. The tornadoes of a few years back proved that yet again.

Besides, everyone knows you need a REAL phone in the station.
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W3GMS
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« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2015, 01:13:39 PM »

Besides, everyone knows you need a REAL phone in the station.


The GMS Hotline ;-) 

Works great.   


* IMG_2530.JPG (1773.21 KB, 4000x2248 - viewed 405 times.)
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« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2015, 01:22:19 PM »


I'm going to bid on the salvage rights to all that twisted pair hiding underground!!

Can you say BONANZA!!
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KC2TAU
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« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2015, 01:39:49 PM »

Hm, this sounds like something to step lightly with.

I've been reading some articles about how Verizon has perhaps been intentionally negligent in the repair of the copper lines in hopes of forcing people to switch to fiber/FIOS. Stories abound of people's lines being down for weeks or a month while Verizon sits on their hands and does little to solve the problem.

I haven't gotten much help posting to ISP specific forums regarding the matter of using a different modem. It's the usual response even from users. "You must use the modem they provide."

The idea of using ferrite to solve the issues would be sound but I tested the modem completely disconnected from any coax and it's the unit itself that is radiating the RFI. My friend and I spent an afternoon poking at the modem to try and figure out how it ticks. Naturally, there is no documentation anywhere. From what we were able to surmise the power supply is on a sub board that is connected to the main board. It's a double layer board and there are multiple voltages involved to power the unit and so simply isolating the power supply looks to be nigh on impossible. As a laugh, though, we found that pressing down on a certain IC with our finger changed the pitch of the RFI. Lovely.

Bill, thank you very much for that resource. I will certainly make use of it.

So, I figure the first step will be to contact TWC and see what they have to say. I know I'll probably get a very canned response either from their phone support or their tech who comes out to investigate. However, the RFI is so incredibly obvious that perhaps there may be a way to pry some information regarding whether or not it really is impossible to use another brand of modem. If I can then that's problem solved right there.

If they're not helpful then I'll talk to Verizon and see what their mood is about it.

I use a cell phone exclusively for talking to folks however the rest of my family does make limited use of the home phone. However, more and more the home phone has just become a place for telemarketers and robotic calls and so perhaps I could convince them to transfer over to just cell phone service and get rid of home phone service. I need to be diplomatic about this as it's hard to recommend an alternative (POTS) if the provider (Verizon) is going to drag their feet if service is needed on the line.
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KD6VXI
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« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2015, 01:58:35 PM »

Ferrite on the power cable.   That's your egress,  not the coaxial cable.

Check the rfi forum on contesting.com.  Ed,  rfi@arrl hangs out there.

Be prepared to be told to put ferrite on the power cord there as well, however.

I like pots lines myself,  too.   Just seems better,  although that's probably all in my head,  too.

--Shane
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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2015, 02:11:56 PM »

However, more and more the home phone has just become a place for telemarketers and robotic calls and so perhaps I could convince them to transfer over to just cell phone service and get rid of home phone service.

About a year ago a friend and fellow ham passed away and I helped his widow clean out his estate.  One item in the mess was a little device that looked like a telephone RFI device.

However, it has the name Tele-Z-Apper on it.  So after doing some research it is a device that sends a tone down the line from your house to the computer dialing your number and tells it something strange.  After changing the battery in it, I plugged it into the line and within a few weeks the telemarketing calls stopped.

It is a bit annoying to hear those tones every time you pick up the handset, but worth getting even with telemarketers.  After a while you can remove it until the next round starts.  I can't wait for election season to start.  Grin
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KC2TAU
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« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2015, 02:13:14 PM »

Ferrite on the power cable.   That's your egress,  not the coaxial cable.

Check the rfi forum on contesting.com.  Ed,  rfi@arrl hangs out there.

Be prepared to be told to put ferrite on the power cord there as well, however.

I like pots lines myself,  too.   Just seems better,  although that's probably all in my head,  too.

--Shane
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Do you have a preferred source for ferrite?
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Pete, WA2CWA
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« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2015, 02:15:33 PM »

Hm, this sounds like something to step lightly with.

I've been reading some articles about how Verizon has perhaps been intentionally negligent in the repair of the copper lines in hopes of forcing people to switch to fiber/FIOS. Stories abound of people's lines being down for weeks or a month while Verizon sits on their hands and does little to solve the problem.


There are still areas in NJ and NY where FIOS service is not offered currently. If you desire phone service in those areas, they try to push you to Verizon Wireless. If you want Internet service in those areas, they push DSL over the copper.

Why not approach Time Warner with a "defective" Arris box issue and request a new one. Maybe the one you have has some component(s) issues.
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« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2015, 02:38:17 PM »

In the meantime, Verizon sold off their rural routes to Frontier, so that's who we have now. And no, having a cell phone is no guarantee either. Cell sites overload fast in emergencies. The tornadoes of a few years back proved that yet again.

Besides, everyone knows you need a REAL phone in the station.

There's no guarantee that POTS service would remain viable during bad storm conditions either. Trees pull down wire and poles can fall over or disappear in the wind. Beavers and other critters like to chew on wires too. Rain and snow accumulation seepage into connections can introduce all sorts of cross-talk. Metals in remote cross-connect boxes can, over time, degrade the quality or kill the connection. Central office flooding and lack of replacement parts for 40 or more year old components that fail, and are no longer made, can lead to a lot of phone service frustration.

When hurricane Sandy came through our area, we lost power for over a week but cell phone service never failed. I also still have a traditional 2500 phone too in the shack and it works great hooked to the cable modem.
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« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2015, 04:20:31 PM »

For what its worth, we have had FIOS for many years now and I have had no issue with the phone over FIOS.  Over a 10 year period of time, I had a couple of issues where Verizon had to do a reset from their end on since I could not reset their wireless router.  I believe that is when the power glitched to the router, but no amount of me doing resets would fix the issue.  It was some issue related to an IP address issue. I bought a small very expensive UPS for the router and have not had a problem since.   So Verizon's FIOS  has been good based on maybe a 10 to 15 year run with it. 

Joe-GMS   
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« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2015, 05:34:42 PM »

My last order was direct to Amidon.   Otherwise,  China is one source,  palomar engineers,  Fair-Rite,  Mouser,  etc.

--Shane
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« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2015, 06:26:34 PM »

Southwestern Bell / AT&T is pushing the "U-verse" service here. I have declined it and kept the copper lines with the ADSL and the POTS, partly because I am getting a lot for my $ and partly because the provider presumes to tack on per-megabit overage fees, that don't apply on ADSL.

I was told in no uncertain terms by the Southwestern Bell / AT&T office that Southwestern Bell / AT&T will FORCE all subscribers to the IP-based system within two years.

This means that they presume to eliminate all of the copper service, and once the freedom of choice is eliminated by the stodgy ol' robber barons, there will be an upcharge of the telephone bill by $10 to boot, and a probably electrically noisy box that must consume MY electricity to run the phone. About the noise, their solution will probably be to simply ask if I want it removed!

The battery backup inside will only last a day, and the Corporation won't be too badly bothered if people expire during a prolonged power outage because the backup battery is dead and no one can dial 911 or make any phone calls at all, as they have no doubt had their lawyers and accountants figure up the cost of any lawsuits against the additional profits made by the supposed economizing of the infrastructure and the outrageous jack-ups of the customers' bills. There is also the matter of poor people who can barely afford a phone but are above the threshold dollars for 'lifeline' programs that supply one for <$20 a month. Some of those will not be able to go from $25 to $35 a month for a telephone. The copper here is is 60 years old however it is plenty good for 6 megabit ADSL now (>100 carriers on twisted pair up to 1MHz) and will be good for POTS for decades more.

During an outage, the Telco is never without power and has huge reserves of fuel to run large generators and can run for many days or weeks in a disaster and furthermore the gummint will see to it that at least some fuel is delivered to priority industry.. This infrastructure can often be seen by looking carefully. I really feel like writing my government representatives a reasonable and polite letter explaining why a "telco-powered" telephone serves the public interest, is important for safety of life and limb, and is also a national security asset.
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« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2015, 08:46:22 PM »

In an area like where I live, copper is the only option. Even a lot a cell providers still don't have great coverage out here, I'm lucky where I'm at but just a few miles to the north or west and you don't have service. The only  cable  services are in the towns and most of those are just mom and pop outfits, TV only. Comcast is available in a few of the towns but I'm not sure on the service quality. We have Centurylink DSL here and its pretty reliable, they are pretty good at fixing it too, you just have to find  someone there that can do something besides read a script. From what I can  tell reading about that U-verse service, it still relies on DSL over a copper line to the suscriber's house, but everything up to the local node in the neighborhood is fiber, and in some newer locations, everythingis fiber to the suscriber's house. I still prefer twisted pair analog voice over anything IP, at my job its a lot easier to work with and usually always work, I hate dealing with Comcast and all these other companies' phone service, we've run into all kinds of trouble with those digital phone services and  also VOIP phone services when trying to interface them with the phone systems we sell. Copper is still the best there is, at least for residential use. I've helped out with a few businesses that have a PRI (23 voice channels and 1 data channel for call control, etc. over a T1 on copper usually, we have a few customers with PRIs coming in on fiber) and even though its a digital service, it still works just as well as a POTS line does.
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